doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com CA for stock repairs

The last stock repair I did, several years ago, was a bad crack through the wrist that I repaired using a cyanoacrylate named Zap-A-Gap. I need to do another now, through the grip. The stock and f/e is soaking in alcohol, after it's acetone soak yesterday. Got to order some, so before I do I thought I'd ask.........

Is there a better CA now for use in doing repairs like this? Sure would like to hear from some with experience.

Thanks, SRH

The adhesive to use is an Epoxy Resin type there are many to choose from but if you want a recommendation I always use the brand name ARALDITE they do two types here �Rapid� and the �Standard� which is far slower to set and useful for re adjustment and it also takes the rush out of things. And I must say it has been a very stable Adhesive over a long period of time I have some repairs heading towards forty years now and they are as good as when they where first done. I am sure Araldite is available in the US their web is www.huntsman.com
Good luck with the repair.

Acetone is a major ingredient of cyanoacrylate super-glue and is also what to use as a solvent for it.

Another way to remove it is by rubbing with oil. The instructions for what I have mention that to remove dried CA from skin is to rub it with vegetable oil. I have done that and it just rolls/peels off with a few minutes of rubbing.

I would go with the slow cure epoxy for the strongest permanent repair.

I have found that using thinned CA for a sanded-in finish can be really nice and tough.

JMHO

Thank you, Damascus. It appears that Araldite is only available from the UK. Can't seem to locate any here (US). Is it unique, or is it just another very high quality epoxy?

LeeS, I didn't mean to imply I am re-doing an old job. This is another cracked stock on an old Iver Johnson I bought. The CA repair on the other gun is holding up fine. Thanks.

SRH

Hi Stan

Araldite is just a good quality Epoxy Adhesive, I am sure that Dupont Henkel or another of the US adhesive manufactures will make a good equivalent.

Epoxy
http://www.devcon.com/devconfamilyproduct.cfm?familyid=179

CA
http://www.goattuffproducts.com/index.php?op=11

For wood that is free of oil contamination, I have found that Titebond II wood glue gives a more nearly invisible joint than polyurethane or epoxy adhesives. Of course, initial fit is most important for an invisible joint. Scraps of walnut that I glued together and then clamped in a vise and smacked with a hammer broke through the wood rather than through the glue joint. That's strong enough for me. I've never tried CA on walnut because I've read that CA has a high tensile strength, but is not so strong in shear. CA's I've used on other items didn't have a very long working time either. How long is it for Zap-a-Gap?

Short working time is the downside of it, keith. It sets quickly, like most other CAs. A plus, tho', is that if you are repairing a place where the wood has not sheared completely off of, it is easily taken into a very small crack. It does have gap filling capability, unlike most CAs. Thus the name, Zap A Gap.

Thanks for the tip on the Titebond II.

I seem to recall someone on here one time explaining how to mix some sawdust, from the stock being repaired, into something to use in filling cracks where a splinter of the original wood may be missing. Anybody remember what that "something" was, or maybe saved that thread?

SRH

Stan, for the quick repairs the CA is really good. For stocks that are oil saturated, use the two part epoxy. I have 30+ years of day in and day out experience in doing what you are doing now. The rub comes from the oil that doesn't leave the stock.

I have one Rem 48 stock now in process as an example. The glue bond came apart because the oil from within caused the bond of the glue to separate AFTER I thought it was oil free. Oh, I soaked in for many times in acetone, used whiting, heat lamps to bring the oil to surface,water based engine degreaser, and finally acetone again ( many times) before the bond held. In all it has been eight months of frustration getting the oil to finally stop creaping out of the INSIDE of the stock. This has been an exception instead of the rule however. Again, I suggest you use the two part expoxy.

On your second question about the sawdust filling the gap. Use may use either CA or epoxy to accomplish the task. For a better result, don't use the sawdust from the stock you are working on. Instead use a lighter sawdust from a similar wood source. The wood dust from the stock you are working on will turn darker than the stock wood AND cause the glue to set up faster than normal. If you want to make the patch look like the wood you are working on find a lighter colored wood source for the coloration medium. Using less dust will work but it is difficult sometimes to guage just how dark the material will turn without trial and error.

Dennis Earl Smith
The Stock Doctor

Stan, the Stock Doctor is absolutely correct about using sawdust from lighter colored wood to get a good color match. I keep a large box of walnut scraps and broken gunstocks for patch repairs and find that the very light colored sap wood from just under the bark will turn as dark as heartwood when mixed with epoxy. Since CA cures in the presence of even a trace of moisture, and sawdust contains moisture, using epoxy for the mix will give you a much longer working time. I'd mix a small batch to experiment getting a good color match before using it on a gunstock and having to look at a repair that sticks out like a sore thumb. In fact, where a larger splinter is missing, it is much better to dig through your scrap box and cut a small piece of wood that has the same color, grain, and pore structure and glue in a slightly oversize piece carefully fitted, and dress it down after the glue sets. I often spend much more time choosing a matching scrap of wood than the time it takes for the actual repair. But it's worth it when you have to hunt for a repair you know is there, because you did it a couple years back, and it's so well matched and fitted that it's hard to find. That's also why I like the Titebond II better than epoxy when the wood is oil free. The glue joint is less obvious if closely fitted. As was pointed out, even epoxy will not bond well to slightly oiled wood, but it does better than Titebond II if there is a trace of oil. Polyurethane glue also makes a near invisible joint if you can keep it off the surface when it squeezes or foams out. That's a big if, and it will interfere with final staining and finish if you don't get it off. I don't know what to say about folks who use gobs of gray epoxy, nails, and baling wire on a gunstock.

Dennis...keith,

This information is exactly what I needed. Along with some very good advice and suggestions from Doug (PA24) I feel much better about this particular job. The last, while holding well for years, is nowhere near an invisible joint, and mars the looks of an otherwise attractive gun.

This kind of information, given generously, is what young men used to only obtain only by an apprenticeship, or by hanging out for years around a gun shop sweeping floors and hauling out trash.

Thanks to all, SRH

Just to add, Stan, it has been my experience with CA vs epoxy that a really good epoxy like Acraglas from Brownells is hands down much stronger and permanent than CA, especially when you mix in the fiberglass floc that comes in the Acraglas kit. I bought bulk Acraglas, floc, and hardener, along with little packets of their powder stain years ago and am still using it. You can really get a good match of color by judicious use of the floc and stain.

CA has its uses, and would like to try the Zap-a-Gap on a small crack next time I need a quick fix.
JR

Would you say, then, that runny Acraglas is better than Acraglas Gel. I prefer to use the Gel as it does not run all over the work and I am really not into plasticene dams.
Any opinions on one vs the other?

I did a little experiment several years ago where I cut and planed some black walnut into strips about an inch wide and 3/4" thick. I cut these into pieces about three inches long and glued pieces together using various adhesives to see which would give me the most unobtrusive glue joint after sanding, and after applying various stock finishes.

Titebond II was hands down the best. Polyurethane was a very close second except where squeeze out or foam out stained the joint. It worked very well where you could sand off enough to remove the mess. It's also messier to handle and harder to clean off of your hands. But I've been told it works well on wood that may have traces of oil contamination. I found a thin 4:1 mix boat builders epoxy also gave a pretty invisible joint, while regular Acraglas was just a bit more visible. A thicker 90 minute Duco or Devcon 1:1 epoxy was most visible leaving a very visible amber line that only Watco Danish Oil finish did a good job of covering. Among the epoxies, it seemed that the greater the viscosity, the more visible the glue joint was. I think this is because fillers like silica are used to thicken them.

The Titebond is nice because, depending on your clamping, much of the squeezeout can be quickly wiped off with a wet rag as long as you don't saturate the glued joint. If you try that with epoxy and denatured alcohol or lacquer thinner, you may have thinned epoxy soak into the surface around the joint and later interfere with stain or finish if you can't remove it by sanding. Forget about trying to clean off the squeezeout or foam out from polyurethane. Best to let it set and cut it off flush after it hardens. This foaming does a great job of gap filling, but if you want a really invisible joint, the joint must be very close before glueing. Surgical rubber tubing works great for wrapping around split wrists, etc. without marring the surrounding wood or checkering. I stretch the rubber tubing and wipe on a thin coat of paste wax on it so that the glue or epoxy won't stick to it, and it can be re-used. I'd rather not fill large gaps with epoxy when I can replace missing walnut with matching walnut, so the only place I ever used Acraglas Gel was for bedding rifle barrels.

Mike, I think I tried the gel on a rifle bedding a long time ago; don't really remember much about it. Never used it since.
JR

I use the Acra-Glas Gel for some rifle bedding or on something I am going to make disappear by artistic faux graining. I prefer the liquid with the fiberglass floc for bedding. The composition of the gel tends to not harden enough for my tastes. I try really hard not to need bedding when I make a stock of any make or model. However as a skim coat I find the liquid best for my needs. When fixing a broken stock I prefer the liquid over the gel. I get the stock together first then I make the patches necessary afterward.

Here's the patient, getting dried out good after the soaks.

This area has a crack, and also the piece completely broken off that you see. It had been glued previously, but the A & A soak loosened it. I'm glad.



SRH

Stan,

That is the 'perfect' candidate for steel pins and a slow curing "two part epoxy" as we discussed IMO.......

Fix the crack first with two or three centered horizontal pins and let it cure while clamped......leave about 1 1/2 or 2 inches extended out on each pin to fit the broken piece on........have the broken piece pre-drilled/channeled to match those steel pins.........after the crack cures solid, epoxy and clamp the broken piece in place.......Sand, finish and checker as normal....

Good Luck and Best Regards,