doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Thick wrist fix?

I was shooting quail and pheasant last week (at a pet'n shoot out on the eastern plains) with a young man who had a very nice RBL in 20-bore. I don't remember thinking the grip was overly thick, and visually the gun was quite nice.

I'm a fan of the RBL's, I thought they were very nice for the money. I may eventually sell mine as I want to take the next step up, not because I am dissatisfied. Can't keep them all!

Chief

I dug out my RBL-12 (built on a 16 ga frame) and it also measures 4 7/8" on the nose. It is also pretty much a round shape. Although it is essentially the same size as the other straight gripped 12's it does in fact seem to feel larger just due to the different shape. Lloyd3's comment on shape appears to be correct.

I've had a little part-time job for the last 6-years or so that has allowed me to handle and measure a fair number of fine and finer guns. It has also allowed me access to a very good reference library on fine guns (to answer most of the questions that have come up). As a general rule, the more a particular firearm costs, the better it seems to handle. There are exceptions (and I'm always on the lookout for them), but the more human time that is captured in completing a fine gun, the better it looks and generally handles. The absolute best values in a double shotgun (at the moment!) are the British boxlock guns completed from just after the First World War (when their makers generally gave up on attempting to market them as "Best" guns) up until production ceased over there, sometime in the late 1970s. Diggory Hadoke (evidently known here as Smallbore) just published a book on the subject that very much confirms what I have found. For a handmade gun that fits and handles beautifully, they are simply hard to beat. And, in the guns that are somewhat unadorned and even stocked rather plainly, the cost is usually insignificant. So much so, that the market for them is still very small. Machine made guns can now be created (using CNC-controlled machines and then lazers to cut the engraving) to look very-much like their far-more expensive counterparts, but when it comes to handling, they usually tend to fall somewhat short of that mark. Diamond-shaped grips and hand-struck barrels (as opposed to through-bolt round grips and mono-block mass-production) are part-of why that discrepency still exists.

Lloyd3,

Would you consider the W&C Scott 700 models in this group? They seem to be readily available in good shape, (not the newest Turkish guns, that are branded Scott). On that note didn't a lot of English makers use Scott barrelled actions and then finish them to their own specs?
I took a chance on the RBL and was fortunate to get one that I like. I am still cautious to buy a gun without handling it. English guns don't show up that often where I am so not many opportunities to check them out.

Chief

Chief: I think that most of the English boxlocks that I have run across over the years were W&C Scott (& most have had other folks names on them). I have heard that some of the later models weren't as well finished as the earlier versions, and I do see some on-line (at Cabela's, gunsinternational.com, etc.) that sound a bit heavier than what I would want, but yes, the non-Turkish versions are exactly what I'm talking about. You will pay more for them in sub-gauges (because fewer were built), and by-all-means, handle them first. Haunt some of the bigger regional gun shows and see what you find. Alot of the guns that have been over here for a while will likely have had their chambers extended to allow for use of American shells, so be cautious of someone doing a shoddy job. The real trick is to find someone who can give you the barrel wall measurements for the gun you're considering. This would be a requirement for me on any gun that I was looking to buy. My personal minimum wall thickness would be 20 thousanths of an inch (in either fluid steel or damascus). More is certainly better. Look for a weight, chokes, and a balance point that works for you and go from there. When a gun feels right, you will just know it. In summary, I guess the mantra needs to be "suitable dimensions and weight, with good barrels".

OK, that helps to know that the basics are mostly the same. English guns are a seperate study! As I stated early on I am considering an English boxlock. I have found a couple of 16's, one was loose and the stock was worked over. The other gun almost came home and probably should have. It was not a bad deal, and of course is now gone. Both guns were just under 6# These are the only two I've seen locally.

Thanks!

Chief

Chief: If the gun show circut doesn't work out, don't be afraid of using a reputable dealer who advertises on-line. Look closely at the photography and make sure you get barrel measurements and all the other critical info (weight, LOP, DAC & DAH, cast, etc.). Then verifiy that you have an inspection period (the standard seems to be 3-days after you take delivery). It can also help to have a credible gunsmith look the gun over for you as well (just for the peace-of-mind factor), but if one isn't available (who really knows English guns), do this: hang the tubes from their lumps with a fairly heavy rubber-band (please do this carefully, and not over a bare concrete floor) and flick the tubes with your fingertips to make them "ring". You should get a clear, steady tone. Anything else means something is loose somewhere. Check the safety, triggers and ejectors (if it has them) with a decent pair of snap caps for pull and function. And, finally, look the stock over very closely for cracks and repaired cracks (don't forget the forend). This should discover about 95% of any potential problems you might encounter. (Doesn't sound any different than the inspection of an American gun, does it?) This is exactly the process I used to check out the English 16-bore boxlock ejector that I presently own and shoot.

What continues to surprise me is the number of dealers who specialize in vintage guns but can't measure wall thickness. Bravo to those who provide those measurements on their websites!
Vintage Doubles (Kirby Hoyt) and Champlin Arms are two that do. I also wish, assuming they don't give you all the pertinent data in their description, that they'd all include good, legible photos of the barrel flats and water table. Those answer a lot of questions about proof status, when the gun was made, etc. I know Tom Bryant at Cabela's has worked with his Gun Library managers to post photos of the barrel flats and water table on British and vintage European guns, although most of them can't measure wall thickness.

Lloyd, one difference between American and foreign guns when it comes to inspection is knowing how to read proofs. American guns provide very little in the way of proof data. Chamber length wasn't marked on most American doubles until 2 3/4" became pretty much the standard. (Always best to measure, but best to assume that an American double isn't 2 3/4" unless it's so marked, or if it measures 2 3/4" but isn't so marked, it may have left the factory with short chambers. (Some folks here can tell you--via catalog copy, factory records etc--when American makers switched to the 2 3/4" standard. But it's a slippery slope, because they didn't all do it at the same time, and a given maker didn't switch all gauges to 2 3/4" at the same time. Complicated!) It's also worth it to invest in a bore and choke gauge, which on many foreign guns will tell you whether the bores have been honed from their original diameter, and will also give an accurate reading of choke constriction--which isn't marked on most European guns, nor on many vintage American doubles (Ithaca and Winchester being exceptions).

Mr. Brown: Amen to that! Wall thickness is crucial in determining how safe a gun is to use and also how long it will remain in service, and yet so many dealers here don't even know how to measure that critical dimension. In England, where proof is everything (it is the Law, after all), barrel walls are commonly discussed on almost every gun listed for sale. Reading proof marks is like learning a language, and because it takes a little time and effort, not every dealer here does that either. As to early American guns and different chamber lengths, that is like learning an entirely different language. I guess the lesson here is either you do your own homework or deal with a reputable fine gun dealer who has done that work for you.