doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Could you share your light load nitro formulas?

I want to shoot 1 oz out of a 12 gauge with 2 3/4" chambers though the gun was originally a 2 1/2. I would like to use either AA or STS hulls as I have a number of them. Thanks

Here you go.
http://data.hodgdon.com/main_menu.asp

Not AA or STS hulls, but paper Federal Gold Medals...

17.8 gr Clays, Fed 12S3 wad, 1 oz shot of your choice. Under 7000 psi.

Thanks but I have no interest in buying a bunch of paper hulls.

It looks like IMR powders are the way to go.

pooch, I have been having great success with Claybuster wads, the hulls mentioned as well as the Rem Gun Club (compression formed), Promo powder (Red Dot without lipstick, I'm told), and Nobel primers. I use the 7/8 / 1 oz wad for, surprise, surprise 1 oz and 7/8 oz loads. They also have out a new 3/4 oz wad that I like a lot. Loading data, with psi, is included with each 500 wad bag.

DDA

I'll look at claybuster wads. I tend toward windjammer right now. But am open to any idea, I want to keep pressure and stress low.

I have been loading the new Claybuster 3/4 oz. wads, CB0175-12, using 16.5 grs Red Dot, Winchester 209 primer in either the Remington Nitro, STS, Gun Clubs or Winchester AA's.
These loads are in the 1250 to 1300 fps. and 6700 psi. range.
Claybuster gives their loads using Remington primers with Remington hulls, and Winchester primers with Winchester hulls.
Straying from their data, I am using Winchester primers in both hulls. From looking at data, I don't believe the psi changes more than 300 psi changing one for the other.
A very nice shooting load that breaks clays nicely.

*Winchester AA Hull
*Rem. 209P Primer
*20.5 grains IMR PB Powder
*Claybuster CB1100-12 Wad
*1 oz. Shot

1150 fps
5100 psi

The above is a great one ounce load, but my light load absolute favorite is a 7/8 oz. load:

*Remington STS Hull
*Rem. 209P Primer
*19.5 grains IMR PB Powder
*Claybuster CB1100-12 Wad
*7/8 ounce Shot

1145 fps
4300 psi

Both are cream puff loads.
� � �

My favorite powder for light loads is IMR SR 7625. Go to the Hodgedon site and find a load. There are about 50 there for 1 OZ loads under 7000 psi. It isn't the only powder for light loads but it's very good. Jim

Alliant shows a Clay Dot 7/8 oz load in 2 3/4" hulls at 5100 psi. i use it in an old Damascus Charles Daly that somebody installed a long forcing cone 2 3/4" chamber in. Still have all my fingers. I talked to a Hogdon tech guy and he indicated that 2 1/2" shells have a much higher chamber pressure than do 2 3/4" shells with the same powder and charge due to the smaller explosion chamber. Makes one think of lengthening the chamber. Jim Pettengill

I've wondered if 2 3/4" using the same load would give lower pressure then 2 1/2". You see the pressure reduction with the same powder charge when going from 2 3/4" to a 3" in the loading data. My 2 1/2 has been chambered to 2 3/4, which I am not happy about, but maybe it will help with obtaining lower pressures.

The reason I called a Hogdon Tech was that I tried it the other way, loading my favorite 2 3/4" load in a 2 1/2" hull, but with a shorter wad, and about blew up an old Baker, had a dickens of a time getting the gun open, and the primer fell on the floor when I did manage force it open. I believe the Hogdon guy's term was that the pressure would go up exponentially. Jim Pettengill

I use the Same as WIld Skies above 19.5 to 20.5 Pb with one oz. Great load and reasonably clean also. 7625 and Pb are the powders of choice for the old doubles.

You can load your favorite 2 3/4" load in a 2 1/2" hull, BUT you then have to roll crimp it. NO SUBSITUTIONS.

This IMR 7625, I assume it is slow burning. Can it be used with a bushing or must one weigh each load?

I have both a scale and an adjustable bushing bar

The hodgdon site does not list any 7/8 oz. loads for PB. Am I missing something?

Look under 24 gm---24 grams is just under 7/8 ounce by a couple of hundredths of an ounce.

Thank you Wild Skies.

The very best for pattern and low recoil.
Federal paper, federal SO wad 7/8 oz shot and 17.5 grains of bullseye.
My P guns and my Ithaca just love them.
John Mc

John Mc
What is the pressure?
Thanks
Mike

It's a granular powder with a fairly fine grain. It meters as well or better than any other powder I use. My Sizemasters with MEC bushings throw very consistent charges.

It has a burn rate near that of Unique but the low pressure 16 gauge loads that Tom Armbrust tested for me with SR-7625 were much more uniform than those with Unique. I now use SR-7625 for all of my 12 and 16 gauge low pressure loads.

12 gauge: I load 17.2 gr/Alliant E3/Win 209 primer/STS hulls/ 3/4 oz of shot/ 3/4 oz Claybuster wads. Gives about 1273 fps. Pressure is quite low, as is recoil.

Great discussion and information thread! Thanks poochie. This one should be made a sticky.

I don't believe that is accurate. With the same weight/type of powder, primer, hull type and shot weight there will be no substantial difference in pressure between two shells in the same gun provided the gun is chambered for the longer of the two. There is no difference in any of the metrics except a taller wad column in the longer shell. Ask that Hodgdon guy to prove what you have told us and provide the pressure and velocity data for two identical loads in both 2.5 and 2.75 shells. Or perhaps you can provide us published data comparison in any gauge showing any significant difference in pressure between two identical loads in different length hulls. Without either you are just passing along a myth similiar to composite barrel are dangerous with nitro powders.

I just relayed the information given to me but a representative of the Hogdon Powder Company, If you have some doubts and questions, I suggest you ask the question directly of Hogdon.
Jim Pettengill

I will just addd for whatever use it may be to anyone, "IF" you are using any of these loads in temps where you are shivering rather than sweating, be extremely careful of 7625 loads or any other loads in that burn range or slower. These slower powders do not always perform well at low pressures combined with cool temperatures. They were designed for heavier shot loads, higher velocities or both & to gain this rely on deterrant coatings to "Slow" their burn rates. PB is much more reliable as temps drop & in the Alliant line Green Dot is about the max burn rate for low pressure use. Loads simply need to be adjusted downward to acheive desirable pressure range. Personally I have no qualms with any of my sound Damascus guns with loads in the 7.5K range.

7625 has the same pressure curve as black powder, which is why Dupont brought it out years ago. i can e mail you the
chart if you wish. The chart is from the DGJ article of Black Vs Smokeless a few years ago.

Rem STS
Win 209 primer
Federal 12S0
7/8 ounce shot
about 16-17 grains of Clays.

It's in the book. It's a nice target load, soft recoil, easy all around.

Saying 7625 has the same pressure curve has nothing at all to do with its ignition capabilities. You can put a pile of black down on a flat rock & throw a match in it & it'll go WHOOSH. Put a pile of 7625 down on that same rock & thow a match on it & the match'll burn out but the powder won't.
Black powder burns at essentially the same rate regardless of confinement, NO smokeless does. With smokeless the higher the pressure the faster it burns 7 the faster it burns the more pressure it produces, so while in a very limited range Black & 7625 can have virtually identical pressure curves, BUT, this does not hold true all the way across the board.
Hey, I'm not trying to stop anyone from using 7625 if it suits them. I decided about 30 yrs ago it did not suit my purposes. All I said was "BE CAREFUL" with it.
When it did let me down in the middle of a duck swamp it did manage to get everything out the bbl, just not with enough OOMPH to kill a well hit Duck. It was a Mallard Drake & this was pre lead ban. I was shoting a 1�oz load of #5 shot which according to DuPonts current data shoud have produced 7K psi, that's not even a pip-squeak 5K. He did come down but hit the water swimming. My son finished him with a 1oz load of 6's loaded with Unique from a 20ga. We checked him carefully when we dressed him & the #6's had penetrated well, the #5's were buried in the skin. I honestly don't know what made him fall, unless he just got off balance, the 5's had not done enough damage to hurt him much. All who insist on using slow powders at low pressures just be certain & make sure every shot empties the bbl, shame to ruin a good gun from a stuck charge, that's all I'm saying. There is plenty of evidence out there that slow powders in cold weather lose ballistics. This becomes even more notable when pressures are low to begin with.

I used to use 700x,
there are some nice loads with this powder on the Hogdgon site, particularly with Rem 209 primers,ranging from 5500 to 7000 psi..1100 to 1200 fps.Seems to burn cleaner than some in my guns.
Its great that there are so many loads to pick from, ain't it?
I haven't shot much in the last couple of years.
But I intend to pick up a jug of something granular ,dig out the couple bags o # 71/2 ,& primers in the basement & see how much shot n powder I dump in the innards of my Hornady progressive before I remember how it works...& crank out a few to shoot clays with...roll on spring!
Franc

2-Piper, SOunds like you were lacking powder in that 7625 Duck Hunt load.
At the same velocities Duponts Charts indicate that 7625 has the same pressures that 2 F black does. CHeck out the Black vs Smokeless articles by Sherman Bell in the SUmmer 2002 page 25. As his tests below indicate for a 3 dr 1 1/8 oz load , 7625 and Black
have the same pressure curve.


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Regarding IMR 7625. It has never failed me. I have used it exclusively for 2.5" 12ga. loads for a long time. I have never found a reason to use anything else. There is plenty of load data for it on the site for 2.75" loads. There has been some discussion about higher pressure in 2.5" using 2.75" load data. If you believe this, then just drop your load down to 7000 psi. Most older 2.5" Brit guns are proved to about 8700 psi. The stuff works in temps down to about 50� very well. Below that I don't know. Jim

I do not recall the exact load now, but it was taken DIRECTLY from DuPont's handloaders guide, no component substitutes. I fired several of them after loading & they were fine & gave good patterns. While I normally did all me squirell hunting with .22LR's prior to the duck season I did take the shotgun out & shoot a few squirells. These loads were just like Ma Beel, they'd reach out & touch someone. Then came that day in the duck swamp, same batach of loads, all loaded just alike, They weren't lacking powder. Only difference I am aware of was I had shot those squirells in shirt sleeve weather, we had to break ice across some open water to get to the timber in the swamp. Even back in the woods the water was about a � from freezing. Under those conditionss the 7625 just didn't cut it. I do recall they were put up in REM SP hulls, Power Piston Wads & CCI primers. Perehaps other components would have made a difference, but these were from the Book. 1�oz shot @ about 1150fps & 7K psi.
It should be easy to understand Why I am leery of these types of slower powders @ 5K psi when it didn't work for me @ 7.
Take this all for whatever its worth to you, I was just throwing out for an apparent newbie to these types of low pressure loads to be aware of possible shortcomings. I see no reason to retract any of it.

Your warnings about low-pressure loads are quite on point. There's a certain break-point (for lack of a better name) below which all one will get is a blooper, gobs of plastic spaghetti in the bores, half-burned powder, lots of acrid smoke and a wad hanging out the choke. If you do it right, like I did when I started reloading, you'll even get to watch the shot charge as it flies out the barrel like a rainbow and hits the roof of the trap house, doing no damage to the shingles. And then you get to go, red-faced, to the scorer's chair to get the ramrod to remove the wad from your barrel.

Or worse, you don't notice the obstruction.

That break point is at some point where the pressure gets too low for the ambient temperature and the powder does not burn properly. Smokeless requires confinement to burn properly, and confinement means pressure. So, loading too light can be just as bad if not worse than loading too hot.

Thank You Dave;
It surely does seem there are a lot of folks around who don't understand this reasoning. The simple fact is the slower the powder the more deterrant it has, making it harder to ignite & burn. It can give great results at some temps but totally fail when a combination of low pressures & low tamps coincide.

I didn't get it at first, and had to learn the hard way. Thankfully, the only damage was to my ego.

Here is some great information from Hodgdon concerning powder burn rates. I'd always believed to get the lowest pressures you went for the slowest burning powders. But according to this chart some of the "hottest" powders are amoung the slowest burning. Example RETUMBO 138 out of 145 a slow burner but a powder for magnum rifles.

http://hodgdon.com/burn-rate.html

As has been stated above, there are lots of low pressure loads offered by the Alliant/Hodgden etc. I use Clay Dot in a 7/8 oz load at around 6,500 psi. Always stick to the published loads and you won't go wrong.

Skeettx
The pressure for the federal paper SO wadded &/8 oz with 17.5 grains of bullseye is less than 6000 at 1200 fps as I recall. This was a published load in the handloader some time back. I will go back through my files and see if I can find it. There were other loads in this article but this one was the best performing for core density and pattern as well as having one of the lower pressures. The biggest problem is getting the components especially once fired paper federal papers. The SO wads can be difficult to find. I always used federal primers but then they seem to be a challange also in the current market. No bloopers constant performer the real varible comes with using the hull after it starting to crap out,ie pin holes,poor crimp 3-5 seem to be max on the cycle.
regards john

To compensate for cold-weather issue, I keep enough 7625 loads in my jacket pockets.

I've been loading the Remington STS green 12-gauge hull with a Remington 209P primer, 16.4 grains of Clays, Remington TGT12S wad and 7/8 ounce of shot, for nearly ten years and have been very pleased with it in all of my old 12-gauge doubles. In the gold hulls I pump it up to 18.4 grains and 1 ounce of shot for wooble skeet and sporting clays with my Superposeds.

My standard low pressure 1 oz. load is a Federal Gold Medal hull, W209 primer, 17.2 grs. Clays, Claybuster CB1100-12 wad. As I recall, this load is only slightly over 6000 psi at about 1125 fps. Very uniform. I shot a round of 5-stand with them in my "new" BE 32" Fox yesterday. I believe I could shoot it off my nose. Recoil practically non-existant.

I have used a lot of 7625 over the years, too, but always remembered the warnings about low temps and just never tried them much under 50 degrees.

SRH