doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com The future of our sport....

Reading the article in SSM by Ralph Stuart about the future of our sport, I wonder what things will look like for the fine gun market in the next 25 years. I am 22 years old and when I go any event with SXS enthusiasts, I am usually the youngest by many years.

Are you recruiting new people???... or do they not have interest? Most of my friends want the newest, coolest AR15 or Benelli. Though I have been able to change the minds of a few guys and have "converted" them to using doubles.... O/Us that is.

So where do yall see things going in the next quarter century?

Adam

Here in Nova Scotia, doubles are scarce. Of the younger generation, many don't know they exist. At the gun store in my area there isn't a double on the racks. The owner says he couldn't sell one if he had one.

Recruiting? My nephew, an experienced goose and duck hunter, is in his mid-40s and sort of coming around to doubles, asking questions about steel shot, etcetera, inquiring about costs. I've baptised no one.

There are few young gunners, most are in the mid 50s to 70-some around here. No fault of the birds, there are plenty to go around. But gunning is tough going around here and most would rather sleep in the morning.

Another factor is consumerism, that the new and bigger is better. Gander at the length of shotshells and those new rifle calibres in the gun magazines. Ask if they're better than the old 2 3/4 standard and 250 Savage and 7 X 57.

A great grandfather in my 80s, I have a fair few good guns and none of my large family is interested in them. They're not for killing. I'm something to be tolerated, the last of the line who make no apologies for killing.

So, Adam, make what you will of it. All I can say is nothing is certain and things change on a dime these days. I don't think there will be another golden age of gunning. I've seen the best of it. Tomorrow I'll be checking fox and coyote snares. And that's going, too.

Adam, most guns coveted by this board will plummet in value. The numbers of SxS shooters will go down because every jackass wants a benelli now.

The really fine guns will continue to rise in value, just as fine art.

Fine shooting goes with fine hunting grounds....that requires a sufficient bankroll that limits the sport's future.

Talked to one of the owners of RST Cartridges today. He said
that in their customer base, 50 would be about the youngest.

Adam,

I am one of the youngest members of the LC Smith Collectors Assn. Last spring I took my son (9yrs at the time) to the Southern SxS for hos first time. He had a blast. He competed in the events with an Ideal Grade 20ga that belonged to Mavin Kenna (wife of former president of Marlin Firearms).

Since that trip he has been hooked. He spends rainy days working on a Quality 4 L.C. Smith that I am restoring. I am teaching him the value and importance of these fine old guns. I'm doing everything I can to make sure that I educate and get the next generation interested in these guns. That is all any of us can do.

Adam
I think.25 yrs from now you will still have peers that are interested in sxs guns. I believe the lack of young sxs enthusiasts is more about economics. I see some interested young people on another site but they have limited resources.

The sooner the new crop of shooters and hunters become involved and popping primers,..the better. Many will stay with their affordable plastic semis. I believe a goodly number will arrive at the point where getting "their limit" no longer has the challenge or satisfaction as in the past. At that point the sated will realize that the means are more important than the end. Those experiencing this epiphany will come over to the dark side eventually, where using two barreled guns will be mandated by their soul.
I don't think we have anything to worry about, as long some two barreled guns are still available.

I think the obituary for Doubles is a bit premature. I see a lot of younger guys buying and using doubles. I see that doublegun prices stayed at the very least, stable, during a prolonged recession. Most of the old classics are selling for more right now than a similar gun in similar condition would have sold for before the recession. Many double enthusiasts, like myself, started out with other types of guns and grew to appreciate them in spite of the way we were brought up. One uncle of mine had an old N.R. Davis that usually stayed at home because it was heavy, hard to hit with because of full and full chokes, and its' habit of occasionally doubling despite the attention of a local smith. My Dad used a pump as did most of my relatives. There were a few autoloaders. My interest started in high school, but I delayed my first double purchase because of all of the negatives I was bombarded with. Local gunshops had plenty of doubles at prices we all wish we could go back and take full advantage of. If the demand wasn't there, the prices would still be very reasonable. Although RST's customer base averages over 50 years old, I believe they expanded recently in spite of selling ammunition that is not as cheap or readily available as ammo suited for other repeaters.

I'm 54. Was introduced to bird hunting by my father around age 9. He shot a Model 12 16 gauge. Used it for everything. He referred to SxS's as "millionaire's guns", despite the fact that he was a long way from the lower income levels. When I turned 20 he bought me a 870 Wingmaster for my birthday. I used that gun almost exclusively for over 20 years. But one day, helping him out with some stuff in his basement, I noticed the old Fox that had belonged to his grandfather. Something clicked.

I think that is the way it goes. What is important is bringing new people into the sport, not trying to convince anyone of what type of shotgun to use. If we keep the shooting sports vibrant than plenty will discover the joys of SxS guns.

I must be the odd one out as I have always been a doublegun guy. While I do have one Auto from my grandfather (Franchi-Eldorado 48AL) I have only used it a few times.

All my upland hunting has been done for over thirty five years with a SxS or OU.

As for the demise of the doublegun. I believe high end guns will stay just that. Low end guns will fall off in demand save small bores. Mid Grade guns will drop off but not as much.

Very well said, I struggled with a way to express that sentiment. I am almost 40, and seem to be the youngest guy shooting a SxS a lot of places.

While my son lusts for a Montefeltro, and shoots a 20 gauge 870 youth model a lot, he has a 16 gauge 311 that he shoots when we go to SxS shoots. As he shoots whatever I provide for him at this point I will keep him going on doubles as long as I can.

Flurry last year at Hausmans;

First time out, CJ at 8 years old;


CHAZ

Here are a few photos of my son shooting. He has been shooting a shotgun for a year now. His Skeet rounds are usually around the 17-19 mark. He shot a 20 the other evening out there with me. He will be joining the Harris County Shotgun Team next month as a 5th grader. He will begin competing in SCTP events later this spring. Our high school has an excellent program with shooters from 5th grade on up to 12th grade. They have won 5 or 6 National Titles and over 25 Georgia State Titles.

Shooting his 20ga Sabatti out at our gun club


Shooting Mrs. Kenna's 20ga Ideal Grade L.C. Smith at the 2012 Southern SxS


Trophy for winning the "High Junior" at the 2012 Southern SxS on the 5-Stand


Out on the Sporting Clays course during the 2012 Southern SxS


High Junior Award for Sporting Clays from the 2012 Southern SxS "American Classics Event" sitting next to his High Junior from the 5-Stand

I think in the next 25 years or so, on this side of the pond anyway, waterfowl will be the sport for birds and the over & under along with the semi will have a bright future. The mighty pump and the SxS will be regulated to the wall or the back of the safe resting alongside the old single shot.

However, on the other side of the pond, including Africa, the SxS will always do well.

I tend to believe that fine old guns are something one grows into. At 34, I just grew into it a lot earlier than most...

I've always shot sxs's since that is what I started with in 1972. My son was exposed to sxs doubles and other fine stuff by my interests and now he is a fan. I started him with a 20 ga. gas auto but he soon started shooting the doubles. When he turned 16 I told him I would buy him whatever 12 ga. he wanted for clays and waterfowl. He chose a Sterlingworth. He also now has his own hammergun and of course shoots my stuff too. He prefers to deer hunt with my Mannlicher-Shoenauer.

He attends sxs shoots but is often the only young man shooting. At last years Vintagers, I didn't see anyone under 30 but him all four days. I hope others get interested. I'm often asked about my doubles at local shoots. Everyone seems to want one, but I think the overiding concern is thier score. Even at a casual five stand I see guys hugely concerned with a miss and I'm afraid they think they'll lose a few targets with a "old fashioned" gun.

Adam--At 22 years old, your mission should you accept it, is to get married and have a raft of kids. Who knows, maybe you will sire the next Nash Buckingham or Kim Rhode.

This is my 50th year of hunting in N. Wisconsin, all with SxS's.I've just never owned anything else until this year (when I bought a M12 16ga).When I'm in the grouse woods and run across a younger hunter(they're almost all younger these days)they use words like "cool", or "it's so light" when I show them my old doubles.They can't believe the guns look so great after over 100 years of service.I know they want one from their reactions, but most think they can't afford doubles.When I tell them only one of my 15 doubles exceeded my $1500 rule anf most were alot less,I can see the wheels start turning.It's like the croud of people clustered around the fine knife tables at gun shows.It's just cool stuff to most people.

Love how you're mentoring your son in the shooting sports, and his achievements are to be commended. I must admit though that pic #3 made me squirm.

I believe this is the key. As more and more land is developed, and more of what hunting ground there is left is privatized limiting participation by regular folks, "shooting" will be limited to breaking targets, and that's just not what it's about to a lot of us.

I don't hang around clay shooting grounds much so don't know what's considered cool to shoot with here in the UK!

Admittedly my shooting is in the privileged bracket, driven shoots with mostly similar aged people (50s-80s). The predominant gun is still the English side by side, over and unders being rare, though no longer 'frowned upon'.

Most of my shooting friends have passed on English - or Scottish - side by sides to their sons. Like their fathers, they started in the field in the beating line before being allowed to carry a gun.

I know we are now probably in a minority, but it offers a glimmer of light for the future. Of course, with continued regular shooting some of those side by sides will eventually need either retiring or re-barrelling, as most of them have already or will shortly approach their 100th year. Perhaps, in years to come, the available pool of fine side by sides will diminish to the point where, following the laws of supply and demand, their value reflects collectable, rather than usable, status.

The other factor we certainly have to consider here is the possible total banning of lead shot. Of course we simply do not want to be putting steel down our old and 'delicate' barrels; bismuth remains an expensive alternative. We would rather keep with lead.


Tim

I started hunting with a shotgun at about age 10 in North Carolina. That was 54 years ago (well, it will be 54 years on the 3rd of February - God willing!!). My first gun was a 20 gauge single loaned to me by my uncle. I occasionally used my dad's 12 gauge single, but the 20 was the main gun. I put many, many paper-clad Federal Monarchs through that little gun. On the actual day of my 13th birthday in 1962 my dad took me to the hardward store and bought for me my first new gun that was genuinely mine. It was a Remington Sportsman 3-shot semi-auto. To shorten a long story, the Remington was taken back when my mom discovered that my dad had paid $100 dollars for it. It was replaced that very afternoon with a Stevens 311 in 12 gauge. I still have that gun and have hunted with it on several occasions. Of course, after I became enlightened after joining the Army in 1970 I put the little Stevens in the back of the gun case to make room for the ever increasing number of pumps and semi-autos that started finding their way in. I hunted with these for years. I went back to doubles (SxS's primarily) in 1993 after moving to Albuquerque and reading in a gun magazine of an individual who had hunted ducks and geese with his "vintage double gun." I said what the heck and pulled out the Stevens and used it on a couple of duck hunts and quail hunts. I then found on line and bought, from Dale Dalrymple who many here know, my first "quality" double: An Ugartachea Model 30 in 12 gauge with an English stock. Well, I was hooked. I have had and still have many (oops, I meant that I did have many guns Mr. Obamma until I lost them all in a boating accident!!)doubles, both properly aligned barrels and those "stacked things." I still have and use the Uggie occasionally, just as I did and do the Stevens when I am feeling nostalgic. The pumps and autos have now been moved wayyyyy back to the back of the safes and are shot occasionally, OR when someone needs a loaner!! At this point I do not see giving up my doubles in my foreseeable future. To me they are works of art. Although my daughter and son are not hunters, they are nonetheless shooters (pistols and rifles) and have a great appreciation for my shotguns. I hope that will continue when I am gone.

Dang guys!!! I didn't realize I had rambled so long. But, at least the "young gunner" who started this thread can see just how these things do get into your blood and that doubles will exist in our sport as long as you want them too!! Good shooting to all.

By the way, I'm off to Oklahoma on Saturday to shoot chukar, quail and maybe a couple of pheasant with my "practically unfired" Browning BSS Sidelock that I picked up this past year. I anticipate good results!!

Perry,

I hope your going to the Panhandle because there are essentially no huntable wild quail numbers outside of that area. My buddies that hunt there are putting up few birds, quail or pheasant. The drought has taken it's toll and not improving.

Ken

I don�t want to provoke an argument with anybody. I didn�t start this thread. Adam asked the question.

Adam, you are the last generation of shot gunner. All the shooting sports will be history in 25 years. Enjoy it while you still can.

Unfortunately, I tend to agree with RyanF.

I'm not so sure of that. Both my sons in their late 20's are avid gunners. Both have friends who are also clays shooters and bird hunters. Most of my Missouri friends also have sons, daughters or grand kids who are also involved with shotguns in some way.

Each year I try to invite as many young shooters as possible to the famed Flatwater shoot in Syracuse, Nebraska. It's still pretty gray there but there is some interest among the younger guys now too. It's really an adult shoot but I'd encourage guys like Pre-13, Cadet (I know it's a long way) and Adam to come to Nebraska for some fun the last weekend in April each year.

It is preserve hunting Ken. Way south of you near Hugo. I had heard about the situation in OK this year and would not EVEN be driving the distance if I was looking for wild birds. I appreciate the concern and I should have posted more regarding the conditions of my hunt. Actually, I should have called it a "shoot"!! Have a good one.

Adam,

Great topic. My biggest hope is to simply promote shooting sports and responsible hunting - get the youngsters into it. As they grow, they'll figure out what kind of guns they really enjoy. I agree with many of the posts that fine old guns are something most will grow into with age. (I got my first double gun just a few years ago in '07). I got my oldest daughter into skeet shooting at 15 with a 20 gauge auto - it's pretty, relatively light and easy to handle, and low felt recoil. She loves the gun and shooting with it. So, that's a victory.

As a kid, I never shot anything but a pump and single shot due to the price - double guns were for rich people. I DO think pumps are still a favorite in America and will remain so - most Americans I know love pump guns (who doesn't live a Model 12). There's just something "American" about them, even when they're imports.

I live in Japan and am very sad to see the lack of shooters and hunters here. I don't know one younger than 60. Even all of the Japanese military with whom I work are surprised to learn that I shoot over here and have several guns.

I think shooting and hunting in America is safe for a while, but urbanization will continue to reduce it. Our part is to encourage our kids, grandkids and neighbors to get involved with it by taking them out and teaching and encouraging them to enjoy a great past time and part of our heritage. That's what I do here with my kids and will do when I return home to Texas.

If you look at it honestly, the future of our sport is a brick wall.

Unless somebody with brains knows how to stop Obama's agenda.

Judging from how crowded my local range is, there is little need for concern.

I would agree that the shooting sports, in general, are doing quite well. I had to wait in line for an HOUR at the rifle range last weekend. I was there with my 10 year old sister letting her shoot her shiny new bolt-action 22. And to my surprise, she was quite the little sharpshooter.

But I am talking about SXSs. I am the ONLY "regular" at the my gun club that shoots a sxs... not that the guys don't like trying out my new doubles (I show up with a new gun quite regularly)... they just don't want to own any of them.

I for one have always been fascinated with double barrels. My first shotgun was a Mossberg 500 pump. My father, although not a "double-gunner" at that time, always encouraged me to buy the highest quality guns I possibly could. And so I quickly worked toward a Beretta 686 and I never looked back.

Situations like my own (and many of yours) give me hope for continuing this sport. Because I wasn't introduced to doubles by anybody. I was just naturally drawn to them. I guess magazines like Double Gun Journal and Shooting Sportsman help as well.

I just hope that the attraction doesn't end with everyday folks.

Adam

I'll come down the middle: Hunting as we know it will be gone in 25 years. Put and take isn't hunting. It's shooting.

There will always be waterfowl and plenty of them. To bad the semi and the over/under rule there though.

Quail hunting is certainly WAY down in my part of the country. In 25 years, the ONLY quail hunting will be on public preserves/plantations and private wild bird plantation/farms. At least in my neck of the wood. It has already become a wealthy man's game, in general.

Dove shooting still provides afforable shotgunning opportunities, though. But even on the dove field everybody wants hi-brass, 3" shells with copper plated shot. They treat the dove like ducks... not the place for a vintage double.

I don't so much mind the O/U... in fact I love 'em. But for a guy that is switching from an auto to an O/U, they're a step in the right direction.

Adam

We went dove hunting in AZ in December with my buddy's ten-year-old twin boys and their new pair of Yildiz O/U 20s. These were their birthday presents and they couldn't wait to get back out there. These kids started shooting with a borrowed .410 hammer double when they were about seven, and they are completely hooked.

I don't live in a particularly gun-friendly part of the world but that said I am surprised to see the number of kids (including girls) showing up for Sunday trap shoots at my club. Baby steps I realize - but you gotta start somewhere.

I have gotten both of my boys started but only with preserve shooting. Grouse and woodcock remain the most accessible wild bird option around here and that seems at least stable for now. I will wait a couple of more years before I start dragging them through grouse coverts in NH and ME. But at least there are some prospects ahead for them to chase wild birds. So I guess I have some guarded optimism about their hunting prospects.

In response to King, I think hunting has improved in many areas of the US in the last 20-30 years with regards to animal conservation. Duck numbers are up, deer are better, as well as many other animals. Lots of work is going on across the South to bring back Mr. Bob. I wouldn't be surprised if efforts increase to bring back prairie chickens in their native plains.
Hunting limits and tags have increased from where they were 20-30 years ago, so I think this is a possitive trend.

With regards to anti-hunting and anti-shooting advocates, yes we must work to prevent them from gaining any ground. Fortunately, a good many hunters and shooters still exist in the US; they're just not the ones on TV. I DO enjoy going home and seeing cammie clad folks snapping shells, gear, and tags at Walmart, and I don't see that decreasing any time soon - at least in Texas.

I do not believe we are an endangered or threatened species as shotgun shooting people. But we are a declining herd in terms of size and a herd which is moving from wild game hunting with target and preserve on the side to one that primarily target shoots, preserve hunts, then to wild birds last.

I do not see the ability to own double barrels as truly threatened in the next generation or so, except in exceptional silly parts of the Northeast and I even doubt that.

The threats I see are directed against hunting, huntable populations of birds, and are more advanced auto's

That said if we do not hold the line hard they will get to our guns one day

I see this as a : 'damned if you do, damned if you don't' situation. Too many people is the cause of loss of hunting grounds, high gun crime....debate for further gun restrictions.

I see further density growth in the cities, higher VOLUME of crime there, more gun restrictions, further loss of hunting grounds. My guess is CA will not have any handguns and semiautos of any kind, or at least LA won't. CA may not have any hunting by then. That will open the door for total ban of guns since "sporting use" will be next to nothing. Nevermind the second amendment has nothing to do with sporting use.

I'm just a ray of sunshine. ...

My 8 year old nephew can not wait to get started. He will get a .410 single for his tenth birthday. If I win an auction for him this morning I will begin his first .22, a Marlin lever gun. His first words to me when he was a 3 year old were "where is my gun?" .....no kidding. I might be as anxious as he is.

I think our sport is safe for a long time. Although not many young people are into sxs's and bird dogs, I see plenty of them shooting and hunting.

Chuck is correct. Other than "the inner city crowd," guns are a rural endeavor.

And CA culture is now media culture. And media is what America is ruled by.

Washington is now Hollywood... and vice versa.

That means you, your double guns, and ALL guns are gonna go.

Sooner or later.

Thank you, Entertainment Tonight.

Adam.......really all I can say is that I wish I was your age again and already knew as much about doubles as you do. You have a long and rewarding life ahead of you with your avocation. You are envied my friend.

Bob, I think they'll become relics, not from repressive governments over time but more from changing attitudes over time, as communities got away over time from chewing tobacco and spittoons---or nearly. I live on a 15 km country road and there's not a soul who would shoot a rabbit, grouse or deer to save their lives. They see it as spitting tobacco, a filthy and disgusting habit. You're right, media does shape our culture. Makes it great for unapologetic dinosaurs like me!

King,

Rather humorous observation you make. Of course, in Texas dipping, chewing, and guns are still VERY common. I grew up with all of that. I don't dip or chew, but many friends do, so I guess Texas is safe for a while.

Adam's return to his original message on double guns versus others has merit - I just think as folks learn more, they're drawn to classic guns. I've always loved SxSs, even though I didn't own one until I was 40.

Well I won the auction yesterday so my nephew will get a Marlin 1897 that I will go through and do a mild custom on for him. It should be fun. Now I'm thinking I might really need one too.
Steve

Our sport future is more in the 40-50 year old age group. Far easier to recruit a 50 year old person to shoot doubles than a 20 year old. Here are my best reasons.

First by 50 you are starting to look back at your youth with nostalgia for all things as they use to be either real or just in your mind and doubles fit right into this. Second by 50 most of your lifetime major purchases are done, house, cars, several wives and many or too many kids so you have time to spend on a hobby. Third by 50 you have more discretionary spending money than you ever had at 20. And last by fifty reflexes are gone so you are lucky to get off two shots at a bird so a double works out perfectly.

You have to shoot TWICE at the same bird?

SRH

In order for this prediction to become true, all of those millions of folks who are right now packing into gun shows and emptying the shelves of gun shops would have to collectively roll over like whipped puppies. To me, this is a pure defeatist attitude, and no way to approach anything deemed worthwhile.

The formula to turn back the current tide is simple. Join NRA... there is strength in numbers. Expose a kid to the shooting sports, and in most cases, they will be begging to participate again. Call, write, and e-mail your legislators. More than anything, they want to be re-elected. Tell them your future support is conditional, depending on their support for your 2nd Amendment Rights. Say that to them politely, but firmly... and mean what you say. Stay engaged, and never give up. Virtually no one who has given up and predicts the death of shooting will do any of the above. That's sad. Winning at anything doesn't just happen without some effort.

Meanwhile, total ownership of all guns has increased by a third in only the last 10 years. Supply and demand is still working just fine with doubleguns. No one is giving any away yet. It's not even trending that way.

I can recall reading items in 'Shooting Times' in the 1970s predicting the end of game shooting in the UK.

By the late 1980s we used to have discussions on our shoots about whether or not we would still be there in five years time.

Well, here we are in the 2010s and we are still shooting.

I am not sticking my head in the sand and do not take shooting and gun ownership for granted. Things change and indeed have changed in the UK shooting field. They always have and always will. However, we are still here and will be, I suspect, in another fifty years time. At least, I hope and pray so!

Tim

The sun will burn out, the earth will get cold, all of us will die.

Everyone dies. What is important is what we do while we are here, and in whom we put out trust.

SRH

Humpty:
Allow me to paraphrase...

"The sun will burn out, the earth will get cold, all of us will render our pound of 2nd Amendment flesh to Obama."

Or... in your case, Putin. One of a long line of Ruling Russian comrades dedicated to personal freedom and social equality.

Hooray for me... screw you???

Actually all it takes for this to come true is for our current economic problems to persist.

Gen Y is absolutely screwed. I don�t see them having the wealth for much of anything. All the expensive leisure activities, including shooting, will fade away.

I predict the same end for boating, general aviation, horseback riding, and all sorts of other things. The next generation is not achieving what we think of as middle class standard of living.

I�m an NRA member and take people shooting. There are some things you, me, and the NRA can�t affect.

The current issue of a popular and reputable Canadian magazine called Maclean's has as its cover story: "The New Underclass, Why so many smart, educated, ambitious young people have no future"

The economic is part of it along with sending kids to colleges and universities who should not be there and likely do better with trades training. Canada has a shortage in the skilled trades.

But any way you cut it, Ryan, it's true that Canada and US are facing lower incomes. A shocker to me was the Canadian statistic that 42 per cent of the 20 to 29s are living at home with their parents.

You hit it on the head. That a college degree will get you $1 million more in income was true in the 60s and 70s, no more.