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7 members (SKB, Ken Nelson, Jtplumb, graybeardtmm3, Hal M Hare, 1 invisible),
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Jun 14th, 2026
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Joined: Jul 2008
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 1,008 |
Thanks Chuck, I appreciate your input. The back story here is the gun in question was purchased from a gun shop just outside of Barcelona, and appears to be a custom gun. It's not unusual in Spain to have foreign national military officers serving in their nations embassies order custom guns to be able to participate in the social shooting circles that go along with embassy service. The emblem on this .410 looks to me to be that of a serving air force officer. Worse yet, it's an emblem I've seen before, but cannot for the life of me remember where. The tree appears to be a oil palm rather than a date palm. Spain has a long history of involvement with the North African countries (especially Morocco), and my suspicion is the emblem belonged to some national force from that general area. Proofed in 1956, the organization to which that emblem belongs may no longer exist. It's a puzzle. There is something vaguely unsettling about those "wings" on either side of the tree emblem. They remind me uncomfortably of Nazi design. Maybe I'm just paranoid but I do not like that emblem. The Fascists were still in control of Spain in the 50s.
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Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 13,883 Likes: 21
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 13,883 Likes: 21 |
A friend and good customer of CSM had a Fox .410 built for him in a 2 bbl set. He had so many problems with the gun it spent much of the 2-3 yrs he owned it with CSM. The gun was "fixed" one last time and then sold. It's a pretty distinctive configuration. Plain blued receiver, no engraving, Win 21 style vent rib, Win 21 style feathercrotch black walnut.
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Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 13,883 Likes: 21
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 13,883 Likes: 21 |
The palm is seen pretty often in middle eastern crests. Wings are common thruout the world on crests. But the characture in which the wings are depicted is unusual. Possibly that is what's familiar/unsettling about this? I have a friend that is a conservator/silversmith/goldsmith that spend a while in the middle east. I'll see if I can get him to look at the picture.
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Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 14,646 Likes: 346
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 14,646 Likes: 346 |
Chuck, I remember that CSM Fox, almost talked myself into buying it. It finally ended up on Ivory Beads list. I wonder who owns it now? Murphy
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Joined: May 2011
Posts: 768 Likes: 3
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 768 Likes: 3 |
Some of the really old .410s are marked "12mm". The late Ralph Walker in his book "Shotgun Gunsmithing" depicts his first single barrel shotgun, marked 12mm.
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Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 13,883 Likes: 21
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 13,883 Likes: 21 |
Ithaca Gun Co. 3-inch .410-bore Chambering -- July 1933 National Sportsman –
"We have not seen the official announcement but we have heard rumors that a 3" .410 shell was coming and on April 13th Norman Pillot of Houston, Texas, whom you may remember as having won the Amateur Live Bird Championship at Kansas City a short time ago, if my memory serves me right, wrote us that he was sending the barrels of his No. 4 ejector .410 Ithaca to be chambered for the new 3" shells. He also wrote us that last year he killed 180 ducks, 120 doves, 40 jacksnipe and broke 47x50 Skeet targets with this same .410 Ithaca.
In anticipating the stepping up of the .410 load, as we have previously anticipated the stepping up of loads for other gauges, all our .410's from the least expensive to the most expensive in either Ithaca, Lefever, or Westerns, have been built with material and strength enough to be rechambered for the 3" .410 and then handle it with a great big factor of safety.
I think it would be well to caution all users of .410s against using a 3" shell in the shorter chamber and I think that caution would bear repeating from time to time as applied to all makes of guns, because they still keep doing it with disastrous results.
You may say that any of our three outfits will furnish any of their .410s chambered for the 3" shell without additional charge for the longer chambering, and you may also say that the Ithaca Gun Company will rechamber an Ithaca or a gun of any other make for the 3" shell at a cost of $2.50 per barrel; and all the Ithaca Gun Company would need would be the barrels."
Researcher, (or Walt?) Do you have any example pictures of the watertables of .410 Ithaca NID guns re-marked after factory rechambering to 3"?
Last edited by Chuck H; 09/25/12 12:02 AM.
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 169
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 169 |
I have a 410 A-Grade Lefever and wonder if this was chambered for a 2 3/4 or a 3" shell. Walt or others, please advise.
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Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 13,883 Likes: 21
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 13,883 Likes: 21 |
Kopkai,
Walt's book states that the A Grade was introduced in 1935 and discontinued in 1940. That, combined with Researcher's posted Ithaca advertisement, would imply that the the A Grade .410 was likely 3" from the start.
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Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 12,743
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 12,743 |
If the A grade was not chambered for the 3" shell it would have a 2˝" chamber, not a 2 3/4" one.
Miller/TN
I Didn't Say Everything I Said, Yogi Berra
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Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 340 Likes: 14
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 340 Likes: 14 |
I love .410 doubles.
EJ Churchill, BLE, 3", 25" cyl/full 4 lbs even. It is a fast mover. It is near the top of Don's MOI chart for quick. Quail hunting last year, I found myself balancing the gun on my left hand while pointing at the moving bird with my index finger. The barrels were too tiny to see against the pines. I'd just literally point (left finger) and shoot. It worked good, but is a totally different way to shoot. This gun fits my 12 year old grandson perfectly. He is getting his beginning skeet lessons with it.
Poli, Anson Extra, BLE, 3" 27.5" full/full, 5 lb 14oz. I haven't shot this much. Chokes are too tight for me. I have 32 and 28 gauge barrels. Mostly it's a 28 ga for skeet until quail season, then it's 32.
British proofed, no name, central hammer sidelever, 2 1/2" proof mark is 410 but not 410C, 28" cyl/cyl with a 15 3/4 stock. 4 lbs 3 oz. I shoot this in .410 hammer events. It is a fun/odd little gun.
Belgium backaction hammer proofed 410/50mm (2" 410). This little one is a non-shooter. It's had a hard life. The proofs are unique to me. It is an early .410 collectors gun.
Joe
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