doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Generic British Boxlock vs W. Richards Droplock

I recently purchased a Charles Hellis and Sons boxlock shotgun, 'The Reliable' for a rain gun. The gun was made in about 1920. It is very pretty in its' "plainess", but has nothing but border engraving. It's a 12 gauge, hand made, and I didn't pay very much for it. I'm lucky and have a good gunsmith here in Indianapolis, and he and I (mostly him) took the gun to pieces and made a new pin for the right hand ejector which had fractured, but still the ejector functioned. I was pleasantly surprised as to the fit and finish of all the working parts in this inexpensive Anson and Deeley boxlock. The parts were fitted to a high degree and polished well. All the springs are robust and of the leaf spring type, including the top lever spring. The triggers are perfectly crisp, superior imo and far better than one would expect on a fairly low grade gun with almost no engraving. The gun weighs 6 1/2 pounds and is balanced pretty well, but still not as pleasingly balanced as a similarly weighted sidelock. I compared this gun to a Westley Richards droplock in the shop and the balance seemed similar. With the exception of the ability to hand remove the locks on the WR, I could see absolutely no advantage to the far more expensive gun (the WR) as compared to this solid and extremely well built boxlock. I think the generic English, Anson and Deeley boxlock, most of which are Birmingham guns, are an excellent value for the money and frankly, I have no idea why they aren't more expensive.

buzz
Shhhhh! People are Sleeping.

BTW Agree completely. Great guns with excellent workmanship.

Buzz, my objective handling data base is prety clear that a boxlock can have handling identical to a sidelock. Dig's new boxlock book has a section on this discussion.

BTW, you might want to abreviate Westley Richards as WR, or similar, to avoid confusiion with W(illiam) Richards of Preston/Liverpool. Westley never, ever used W. Richards and William was only too happy for people to confuse his firm with Westley's.

DDA

What 'e said!

A vintage A&D BLNE is a near bombproof action; given normal use and care many will have mechanically withstood the ravages of time better than other actions and be a handsome gun that can handle every bit as well as any made if the care and workmanship was put into it when built - for a fraction of the cost now of many other vintage guns on other actions.

If Geno were around, he wouldn't have missed the chance to say that Sauer's best and most expensive offering, the Meisterstuck, cosidered by many the finest gun made in Germany, was an A&D boxlock.

I own a single trigger droplock made in 1904. Pretty gun, but not superior to my Italian boxlock made in 1982.As in all detachable bits, it is easy to lose droplocks, especially when showing off. Much preferable is an easily detachable bottomo cover to ease maintenance. FOr these reasons your non detachable is a more practical and robust SXS.

In theory, the absence of transverse holes in the bar makes the action stronger. But that doll's head on the WR is an eyesore and handsore when loading.

Years ago there was an article in Gun Digest, Perfecting the Boxlock. Most of what was proposed is now incorporated in SXS like the RBL, the Ferlib Euro and the Famars Zeus. Rounded actions, advanced steels, and even droplock actions if you want them.

What I am waiting for is for someone to combine the round body with the coil spring action of the Winchester Model 21 or the Silver Hawk. Then we can talk about a truly robust boxlock with drop in parts that need none of that expensive hand fitting.

"it is easy to lose droplocks, especially when showing off"

You are kidding right?! Where? - at sea on a skiff? WR made a best gun in every sense of the word when they made the DL. Emplying that any A&D is as good is like saying all sidelocks are the same. And that is not to say that the standard vintage boxlock isn't a great gun - it is and many are great buys. But the drop lock is a special thing.

There is no advantage to to the Westley Richards droplocks. Having said that the biggest non-buyer's regret I have is over a little Westley droplock that Kirby Hoyt had. 16 gauge, Damascus barrels, heel and toe plates, lots of quality engraving, sub six pounds. It had been sent back to the Westley factory and a second set of 12 gauge fluid steel barrels made for it. We got within $600 of each other and I wouldn't go up. Kirby sold it the next week. I have also rejected upon inspection two other droplocks that I had shipped in.

So no, nothing technically special, but the market values them at about five to one over the equivalent A&D boxlock.

I still don't own one but I keep looking at them.

Best,

Mike

I am not implying that ALL A&Ds are as good as a droplock, however many are AS good. The doll's head is an anachronism that makes loading and unloading (of unfired shells) difficult. When the gun is open that gaping doll's head recess is plain ugly. Rebarreling a doll's head gun is an expensive pain. The cross pin (hinge pin) machined from the solid is another minus, a big one in my opinion. It is unsupported by frame metal at the front, and also adds to the rebarreling and tightening difficulty. If a droplock works loose you are restricted to adding metal to the hook, you cannot change the cross pin.

I mentioned the Ferlib Euro, the Famars Zeus, and the Famars version of the droplock in the AS GOOD category, and in my opinion, prettier more functional and defintely more rapairable than the dropolock. I also happen to know that the Ferlib goes through severe high tech quality control, yet sells at a fraction of the droplock.

As for losing detachable bits, I know of two cases. The trigger group of a Rottweil Gamba, detached by an owner to show off to his friend. The other from a Perazzi, again when showing off and mislaid in someone else's gun case.

The temptation to show off those jeweled locks has risks. Everyone who comes withn eyeball range of my droplock wants to see those jeweled locks.

The single trigger on droplocks, manufacture wise, is a marvel, operation wise it is nowhere near as reliable as my Citori.

Unique, definitely. Best, well, I have misgivings.

I'm amused by Shotgunlover's comments re. the danger of losing Westley Richards detachible locks while showing them off & championing hand detachable bottom plates. Seems to me you are just as likely to lose the bottom plate as easily as lose a detachable lock & on the later WR's at least the bottom plate is hinged to prevent loss. I'm a big fan of both WR style detachable locks & H&H style detachable sidelock as well as detachable bottom plates as it allows the inept to remove the locks for cleaning & lubrication w/o buggering up the screws!

As far as the C-Type top bolt being an eyesore & hand sore, I've heard the same criticism leveled at Merkel O&U's with Kersten style extensions & I've never had any issues with either one in loading or unloading. The WR hand detachable lock action w/C-Type bolting has a disinct apperance & you either like it or you don't. The C-Type bolting adds considerable strength & allows for a lighter action body as does the lack of holes in the action
for sear & hammer pivots.

FWIW I really like English A&D actioned guns & think they are a great bargan but to me the WR guns with Type C bolting & and hand detachable locks are on a higher level and worth the premium.