doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com President Benjamin Harrison's Optimus Grade

Dave, This dog flushing a woodcock on my sidecocker is about as alive as I've seen. Any idea on the engraver?

Dr. thanks and I will post a picture showing Glahn's engraving with his signature for people to use as a comparison. As far as some type of symbol used instead of a signature, I don't know of any for Spangler. I do know that some engravers used a symbol and maybe all did, but again I do not know.

Richard, that is a very life like setter, but I would be guessing on who did it.

In records kept by L.C. Smith Maker and the Hunter Arms Co. it showed who transfered from Syracuse to Fulton in 1889-1900 when L.C. Smith sold the gun works to John Hunter.
The Spangler brothers and Jacob Glahn and his three sons, George, Theodore and Gus. Jacob Glahn died in 1892 and the sons continued to engrave at Hunter Arms until around 1905.
In "Steel Canvas" R.L.Wilson describes Theodore as a very talented engraver who engraved a Colt gun for Teddy Roosevelt, and Jacobs brother Wilbur went on to become one of the Colt Firears Co's greatest engraver.

So until more signed engraved guns are found for comparison to ones that aren't signed, hopefully we can find a symbol to identify different engravers. I'm sure they all have them, and most of the engravers back then knew each others work without seeing a signature.

DrBobs signed Lefever.
This is signed Glahn sc (sc means scribed)

this one is not signed but these two guns are consecutively numbered and would most likely be the same engraver.

Skeettx, the engraver of the Baker would be Frank Mason.

This comes from research I did in '07 and posted on the Lefever bbs.

Syracuse City Directory 1887-1888
Jesse H. Brown foreman 36 The Montgomery Syracuse New York 1887 1888
William S. Ely book-keeper 77 W. Genesee Syracuse New York 1887 1888
A. Ames Howlett pres. Lefever Arms Co 2 Greenway Place Syracuse New York 1887 1888
Alfred A. Howlett vice-pres. Gas Light Co. pres. Salt Springs Nat. Bk. and treas. Lefever Arms Co. 115 (new No. 119) W. Genesee Syracuse New York 1887 1888
A. Ames Howlett; Alfred A. Howlett; D. M. Lefever pres.; treas.; supt.; manufs; automatic hammerless guns Maltbie n. Clark Syracuse New York 1887 1888
C. Frederick Lefever finisher boards 115 Merriman avenue Syracuse New York 1887 1888
Daniel M. Lefever supt. Lefever Arms Co 115 Merriman avenue Syracuse New York 1887 1888
Edward Lefever gunsmith 157 Belden avenue Syracuse New York 1887 1888
Frank Lefever stocker boards 115 Merriman avenue Syracuse New York 1887 1888
Sophia Lefever 30 Chase Hall Syracuse New York 1887 1888

Syracuse City Directory 1888-1889
Jesse H. Brown foreman Lefever Arms Co. 36 Montgomery Syracuse New York 1888 1889
William S Ely book-keeper Lefever Arms Co 21 Noxon Syracuse New York 1888 1889
Alfred A. Howlett pres. Salt Springs National Bank, pres. Gas Light Co. and treas. Lefever Arms Co. 119 W. Genesee Syracuse New York 1888 1889
A. Ames Howlett pres. Lefever Arms Company 2 Greenway Place Syracuse New York 1888 1889
A. Ames Howlett; Alfred A. Howlett; D. M. Lefever prest.; treas.; supt.; manufacture automatic hammerless guns Maltbie n. Clark Syracuse New York 1888 1889
Charles F. Lefever gunsmith boards 115 Merriman avenue Syracuse New York 1888 1889
Daniel M. Lefever supt. Lefever Arms Co house 115 Merriman avenue Syracuse New York 1888 1889
Edward Lefever gunsmith boards 115 Morriman avenue Syracuse New York 1888 1889
Frank Lefever gunsmith boards 115 Merriman avenue Syracuse New York 1888 1889
Lefever Syracuse New York 1888 1889
James Riker foreman 89 Madison Syracuse New York 1888 1889
Albert E. Spangler engraver 154 Townsend Syracuse New York 1888 1889

Syracuse City Directory 1889-1890
Jesse H. Brown foreman 36 The Montgomery Syracuse New York 1889 1890
J. Frank Durston treas. and manager Lefever Arms Co. 505 W. Genesee Syracuse New York 1889 1890
William S. Ely book-keeper 210 Noxon Syracuse New York 1889 1890
Alfred A. Howlett pres. Salt Springs National Bank, pres. Gas Light Co. and treas. Lefever Arms Co. vice pres 600 W. Genesee Syracuse New York 1889 1890
A. Ames Howlett pres. Lefever Arms Co. 600 W. Genesee Syracuse New York 1889 1890
Chloe B. Kinne stenographer boards 907 Madison Syracuse New York 1889 1890
A. Ames Howlett; J. F. Durston; D. M. Lefever prest; treas. and manager; supt. manufacture automatic hammerless guns Maltbie n. Clark Syracuse New York 1889 1890
Charles F. Lefever gunsmith boards 722 Gifford Syracuse New York 1889 1890
Daniel M. Lefever supt. Lefever Arms Co 410 Merriman avenue Syracuse New York 1889 1890
Edward Lefever gunsmith boards 410 Merriman avenue Syracuse New York 1889 1890
Frank Lefever gunsmith boards 410 Merriman avenue Syracuse New York 1889 1890
James Riker foreman 417 Madison Syracuse New York 1889 1890
Joseph A. Rosenberg Lefever Arms Co. boards 530 Gifford Syracuse New York 1889 1890
Albert E. Spangler engraver 415 Prospect avenue Syracuse New York 1889 1890

Elliot briefly mentions Jacob Glahn and possibly his sons; A.E. Spangler and perhaps his brother Wilton; L. Delunsch; R.A. Arthur; possibly Frank Mason and sons Roy and Max; and R. Kornbrath. I am taking Elliot at his word regarding engravers who worked on Lefever guns.

Jacob Glahn
Occupation: engraver
Business Address: 110 south Clinton
Home Address: Kennedy n. south Onondaga
City: Syracuse
State: New York
Year: 1887 1888

Augustus Glahn
Occupation: engraver
Home Address: boards Kennedy n. south Onondaga
City: Syracuse
State: New York
Year: 1887 1888

George J. Glahn
Occupation: engraver
Home Address: Cortland avenue. n. W. Castle
City: Syracuse
State: New York
Year: 1887 1888

Theodore Glahn
Occupation: engraver
Home Address: 188 Lodi
City: Syracuse
State: New York
Year: 1887 1888

Milton C. Spangler
Occupation: engraver
Home Address: boards 113 Townsend
City: Syracuse
State: New York
Year: 1887 1888

Pete

David,

Please allow me to make a small correction. In the 19th century and earlier it was common for engravers to use S.C. after their name rather than the later form of Eng. (or Inc. [incisore] as used by Italian engravers). The S.C. was an abbreviation for sculptor. I realize that it seems like sculpting and engraving are two different things but it was a tradition. This does not just apply to gun engravers. On the contrary, it was mainly used by those who engraved wood blocks or copper plates to reproduce art. Gustave Dore' and his staff of engravers are a good example.

On another note, I have noted a number of threads here where someone was trying to determine an engraver's identity relative to an unsigned gun by looking at the animals and game scenes. When I am evaluating a "who dun it", it is the scrollwork that is usually the key to an engraver's identity.

Most 19th and early 20th century professional gun engravers used pattern books for their animal and game scene examples. Those who were formaly trained in Europe and England were also taught very specific ways to engrave the most common animals. Unless I am looking at animals on the level of Fugger or Churchill, I really can't make a positive ID that way. Scrollwork is almost like an engraver's fingerprints. This is especially true of American engravers who were allowed to work in their own way as contrasted with Austrian and German engravers working in their homeland where they were held to rigid standards. When it comes to what we call German scroll (called "grund Englisch" by Suhl engravers and "Altenglisch arabesken" by Austrians) it is almost impossible for me to discern the engraver's identity because of the uniform way it is executed by Suhl or Ferlach trained engravers. I could go on and on about this topic but I will just leave it by saying that good detail pictures of the scrollwork is what I and other engravers need to see for a good assessmant of the engraver's identity.

Cheers,
Roger

Pete,
I missed your article on this, and thanks for listing it.


Roger,
Thank you for the correction and the tips on what to look for. In a few signed engravings that I have, I will start to look at the "bigger picture" than just looking at the dogs. That makes sense, I never paid attention to the scroll work mainly because it wasn't as interesting as looking at the dogs.

Again thanks for your expertise.

David
There's one small left side lock plate pic of the Harrison gun on page 238 of R.L. Wilson's book, Steel Canvas. In his book Wilson claims the gun is signed "Spangler SC" on the side plate.
I personally saw the Harrison gun in the late 70's (77 or 78?) in Atlanta in the showroom of the now long defunct Atlanta Outfitters. At the time my gun collecting/research efforts were nothing more than a dream (was still in my 20's); and the most remarkable thing I remember about the gun was its price tag; $100,000! I recall it as a beautiful old gun; but not nearly as impressive as the John Linneman Optimus Grade or some of the Purdeys and Hollands I saw, which were more utilitarian priced in the $20K range. This guy had dozens of amazing guns in his showroom, and I was in awe at what I was privileged to see there. And certainly, with the benefit of 20/20 hindsight, were I to walk into a similar situation today I'd be taking notes and pics; something that never occurred to me in those days (frankly I had maybe two nickels to rub together at the time, and was a bit intimidated by all the atmospheric price tags!). I don't remember the maker, but there I saw a tiny and beautifully cased English double rifle chambered in .22 long rifle; that gun was amazing. I also remember a row of Parker .410 doubles in various grades residing on a rack near the Harrison gun; I counted 15 in all and haven't seen that many Parker .410's in one pile before or since (might not have seen 15 total since that day!).

Topgun, somewhere in my files, I have a list of Parker guns, serial numbers included, from Atlanta Outfitters. Among those guns were the .410s you mention, including an A1 Special. This was a couple of decades before we copied the Parker records and no mention was made of any of these guns being upgrades. I have intended for years to compare the serial number of these .410s with known Parker serial numbers, but have not done it. I wonder if these guns were Otis Odom's .410s? I believe he had a good relationship with Robert Runge and Larry Del Grego Sr. Bill Murphy

Bill
I never met Mr. Odom personally; but knew a lot of collectors who knew Otis. I tend to believe that those were not his Parker guns because he was still deep into Parker collecting at that time in the 70's. I was told by these people (and also Del Grego's grandson as I recall?) that Mr. Odom had Runge and Del Grego upgrade several of his Parker guns; in retrospect I wish I had seen his stuff, just never got down to his part of south Georgia.

Roger, the Glahn signed guns I have seen have SC. behind the name rather than S.C.