doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Wire wrapped shells?

I found this auction http://www.auctionarms.com/search/displayitem.cfm?itemnum=7883671

The seller claims these are for muzzle loading guns. What are these? Is the shot wrapped in wire? Was this a common type of load?

Thanks,

Pete

Wow.
Finally saw one of those from a commercial maker.
I have print material that speaks of those cartridges, I have a really, really beautiful shotgun that was made for this kind of cartridge.
The neat thing about my shotgun is that it's a breechloading percussion gun that fires through the side of the cartridge near the base.
The gun is set up for a ramrod which would likely take care to clear any of the wire and paper that was left at the breech end after firing.
Also, my gun takes a slightly larger than 20b cartridge.
That 18b cartridge might be just right.

The whole load column was wrapped in paper, with the shot inside it's own paper cup.
The breech loaders fired a hot percussion cap through the side of the case.
My gun very much resembles a pinfire gun with it's big hammer shoes that reach a bit forward to hit the nipples.


How exciting!


--Tinker

Not positive this fits, but there were numbers of dif methods employed trying for tighter patterns before choke boring became standard. I have read of sabboted or wrapped shot charges being used in the 1870's~1880's I think. There may be a ref to that in Michael Yardley's book 'Clay Pigeon Shooting: A History'. Michael or Dig may have some better knowledge on the subject. Of course, Eley is still in business too and they may have a historian. Anyway, I'd think that is what you were looking at rather than something made for muzzle loaders in any generic sense, tho it certainly could have been. Without knowing the 'as built' diameters of the two charges, it could have been intended for muzzle loader, breech loader w/brass cartridge or breech with paper, tho from gauge markings would say the latter unlikely, so that leaves muzzle loader or brass cartridge as most probable.

And .. as Russ was prone to saying, "But I could be wrong."

You guys have lost me here. Was the wire part of the firing mech?

If you were sitting here beside me with this breechloader and a set of measuring tools in your hands, and my texts on the development of the cartridge (europe) you'd likely be strong on the notion that those eley paper wrapped cartridges were for a breechloader too.






The long side view of the shotgun is a crap image of a really beautiful gun. I just include it to show you the long barrels, the ramrod ferrules, and the figure in the wood. The stock is goregeous. The metal finish is amazing, and the metal fit all over the gun is top rate. Inside the locks, the lockwork is mirror-bright.
Note also in the last image the lightening cuts in the action flats and the neat little assisted opening feature -- the little cube-shaped pin on the action flat. It helps push the barrel flats up and open the gun as the trigger-guard is swung around to open the action.


Really neat gun, it handles beautifully.


--Tinker

TW-

In the context of paper wraped, breechloading, externally fired cartridges, the wire was simply used to lend some very minor structural integrity to the loaded ammunition so it'd be somewhat more robust and 'field carryable'

I'm really excited to finally see an example of these, besides the drawings I've seen in the european texts.
There were numerous iterations of this theory of cartridge system. Most of the guns got converted (immediately) to pinfire and got used up over the years or blown to bits when smokeless powder first came around.
My shotgun shown above is a pretty amazingly rare example of a relatively high grade gun, in amzaingly beautiful shape.

The wire didn't have anything to do with the ignition system.


--Tinker

Tinker,

Fascinating looking gun. So, when you load these "cartridges", then pour in the powder? Is the wire a set of rings that fall away?

I have no interest in that auction by the way. Not even as a bidder. But am fascinated by the various paths that lead to the modern shotshell.

Pete

Pete-

I haven't found any text that discusses the manufacture or field assembly of these cartridges, but I am positive that they were meant to be carried and loaded as comple cartridges.
Break the gun open, load them, close the gun and set the caps, then go hunting.
Shoot and clear the tubes with the ramrod if necessary, load and repeat...


As you might have noticed, I jumped on them and went for the buy it now option. I'd surely have paid that if I found them anywhere else, frankly these are the first I've seen or heard of that actually made it through the last two centuries and are still intact.
Very cool to have found them.

I'll be carefully studying them and without taking them apart, doing all I can do to reverse-engineer the assembly (shoudn't be so difficult), then set up to make imposters to run in my gun, complete with imposter Eley over-shot labels!
I'll likely counterfeit some sort of period-proper box and label for them too.



--Tinker

Tinker,

Good for you. The seller is in CA, so you should have them relatively quickly. He always has some interesting items among his auctions.

When you get it all figured out, I for one would appreciate if you share the information. There is always something to learn here.

You might take tw's advice and contact Eley. They may be able to add more information, perhaps an image of the original cartridge box.

Pete

Maybe a DGJ article in the future??? Lee