doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com J P Moore and Co, Toronto, Ontario

Pete M.
For the past 40 years that I have attended Ontario Gun shows,during this time I have never seen a gun bearing the name J.P.Moore or Holman!
Records show that Holman was listed in Hamilton directories for the years 1884-1895.
The prime sources of information on Canadian Gun makers/Smiths are the following;
Canadian Gunsmiths 1608-1900 by the late James Gooding.
James was also the Principal publisher of the magazine," Arms Collecting" and the "Canadian Journal Of Arms collecting" ,with locations in Bloomfield, Ontario and Alexandria Bay, N.Y.
These magazines were published from 1963-1990. many volumes of these publications contained articles on Canadian
Gunsmiths.
The primary focus of the magazines was on practicing gun makers rather than gun dealers.
Professor Gooding was recognised by the Arms and Armour Of Society of Great Britain in 1992 and was also awarded the Man at Arms cup for his contributions to to the study of arms and armour.
It was a priviledge to have known Jim through participation in The Canadian Guild of Antique Arms Historians.
Perhaps the finest gun made in Canada was a rifle by Philo Soper of London, Ontario.This rifle was presented to H.R.H prince of Wales when on a visit to Canada in 1860. This rifle can be seen in The Royal Collection at Sandringham.
Following the development of the breech loading shotgun, several gunsmiths began importing Birmingham made guns into Canada. These guns were engraved with their name. The names most frequently encountered are;Gurd,Rawbone,Grainger & Marston.With the exception of Rawbone,the guns that I have seen were low grade Birmingham made guns similar to the J.P.Moore gun that is the focus of this article.The vast majority of Canadian made guns are muzzle loaders from the period prior to 1860.
In later years[1909-1921] The Tobin shotgun gun was made in Woodstock ,Ontario. In the years[1978-1984] the much maligned Frank Malin made shotguns in Melbourne,Ontario.

It may be that Joseph Gales was brought onto the Schoverling & Daly sporting weapons ship as he had more to offer that just a bicycle peddler. Joseph Gales(April 29th, 1847- May 1st, 1916) was born to Weston Raleigh & Mary Spies Gales. After completing his well rounded education he worked at Spies, Kissam & Company of 279 Broadway, NY, a sporting goods vendor. I would venture a guess that Joseph Gale's mother and the Spies of Spies(A.W.?), Kissam( Frederick ), etc. were either brother & sister or father & daughter. The concern seems to have faltered in the mid to late 1870s(dissolved in 1879 same year Gales joined S&D) and that was when Joseph Gales jumped ship to Schoverling & Daly, which at one point permeated every facet of gunmaking in about every corner of the globe. So instead of focusing on say Lindner as being a source for the American makers, it is more probable that Schoverling, Daly & Gales was the conduit for sourcing.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Raimey, I think it probable you are right. Even before Gales, in 1877 we see ads for Shoverling and Daly guns, with suggestions that customers send for a Daly Gun Catalog from W.R. Schaefer 61 Elm St, Boston, E. P. Taylor, 72 E. Madison St., Philadelphia, and T. L. Golcher, Phila. Of the above, I have seen Lindner/Daly type guns marketed with all of the names, except Taylor. I would expect there is a Taylor marked gun out there, too. Close relationships, for sure.

I too think it is out there somewhere. But considering the John Prey Lower & Sons offering, a light would shine above and all would be at peace if it had the A&D APUN inverted on the standing breech. The effort for the piece was sourced from the Suhl talent pool and a gesteck may have been sourced from Auguste Francotte, which may have been an A&D satellite stamping station. Upon further pondering it may have been that John Prey Lower wasn't an authorized H&R U.S. of A. outlet, wasn't worried about the patent infringement being that far West(probably didn't think R. E. Couchman would stop by to collect) and didn't want to pay the 15 shillings for the rights.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Roy,

Thanks so much. You are wealth of information. I appreciate your sharing that information.

Pete

I have a W R Schaefer hammer gun with the Lindner type wide forend loop, but no Lindner marks. Only mark is the ELG of Belgium on the barrel flats with an R.S. just ahead of the barrel flats. Lots of crossing of borders, I guess I should add, the gun was "finished up" stateside and has L. D. Nimschke's marks under the left hammer. [L.D.N. NY or similar]

Don't forget that Spies, Kissam & Company & L. D. Nimschke were pen pals at the very least & I'm lead to believe he executed the bulk of their engraving needs. Also the Belgian mark is yet another clue that the gestecks were being sourced from Liege early on for Daly's needs. 1st he sourced the Brits for components, then the Belgians and I'm sure set the stage for the talented pool of Suhl mechanics to grow their own. I may have said it 1 too many times but Schoverling, Daly & Gales is the thread that binds all early American breech loader offerings. Any initials in the Doll's head well? M-4 has been on my case to get all the particulars on the talent pool in Suhl/Zella Mehlis in a searchable format. With that parameters, sourcing lines, etc. will need to be an integral component.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse