October
S M T W T F S
1 2 3 4
5 6 7 8 9 10 11
12 13 14 15 16 17 18
19 20 21 22 23 24 25
26 27 28 29 30 31
Who's Online Now
3 members (dogon, AGC Ammo, 1 invisible), 816 guests, and 9 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Statistics
Forums10
Topics39,524
Posts562,394
Members14,591
Most Online9,918
Jul 28th, 2025
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 3 of 4 1 2 3 4
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 627
Likes: 47
Sidelock
**
Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 627
Likes: 47
I recently worked with a 10.5 X 47R in my Cape gun and have rather come to enjoy and appreciate the cartridge. I intend to use it this deer season. I did use 43 Mauser brass but can't imagine it being any better than 45-70. I had the 43 on hand and an ample supply for my double rifle in that chambering. My bore dimension is close to yours but I do not recall exactly. For what it's worth I acquired a mold from Accurate Molds in Salt Lake. It is the 40-82 WCF bullet opened up to accomodate the larger bore of the 10.5 X 47R. Tom at Accurte molds is great to work with. My final load was Rem. 9 1/2 primers, 61 or 62 grs. of Fffg Scheutzen, a .020 card wad beneath the Accurate bullet cast 25-1 and weighing 270 grs. I ended up with 2 1/8 in. groups at 50 yards. I do believe the old gun would tighten up a bit more with a little more development such as paper patching or the use of Hawk jacketed bullets which are annealed dead soft. I believe they are about 25 BHN. My chronographed velocities were in the 1370-1390 range and that calculated to around 1100 ft. lbs. of energy.

Just an FYI, my 16 bore barrel has .042 choke as best I can measure

Vic

Last edited by sharps4590; 08/24/12 06:32 AM.

NRA Benefactor 2008
NRA Patron 2007
NRA Endowment 1996
NRA Life 1988
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 4,942
Likes: 344
Sidelock
**
Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 4,942
Likes: 344
Otto,
I think I remember your 9.5x47R from the auctions-nice.Since the groove diameter is .417",bullets shouldn't be much of a problem.I suspect a standard 416 bullet,"as cast"diameter will be close enough.Since you are listed as "chipmaker",I thought you might be a machinist.If this is so,you should be able to make button die/punch to make"A"base cases and "face off" 416 mold block to get the weight bullet you need.As best as I remember,the cases with the 9.5 were set up to headspace on the neck,so the rims were likely only turned to diameter and not modified to "A"base.As I recall also,your 9.5 came with dies. If this is so, they can be used to make cases from 45-70(normal rim)to fire form in the 10.5 by trimming to length and size til the rifle just closes.This should result in cases that headspace on the shoulder.Since you have two chambers,these cases may or may not work in both.If you modify the rims to "A" base,this shouldn't be s problem. This seems like a lot of fun,I wish it were my project.
Mike

Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 59
Sidelock
OP Offline
Sidelock

Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 59
VIC. Thanks for sharing the loading information on your 10.5X47r. I plan to use lead bullets in the rifle but haven't decided on whether to use BP or search for a smokeless substitute. The ammo that came with the 9.5X47r indicates that they used 28gr of IRM 3031.
Mike. I must have missed the combination gun when it was listed in the auctions. I bought it at the Tulsa Gun Show this year but it may be the same gun as it came with a bullet mold,a bag of lead bullets and the 18 cartridges.The 45-70 based cartridges are set up to head space on the shoulder and the rims measure .070". I'd have to set the shoulder back for them to chamber in the 10.5X47r.
I am a home shop machinist and can make most things that I can understand. I'm not familiar with the button die/punch. Do you have a photo or a reference as to how it is used? I thought about making a bushing and suspect that the expansion of the base on fire forming might lock it in place.
Otto

Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 627
Likes: 47
Sidelock
**
Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 627
Likes: 47
If I correctly remember Seyfried's IMR 4198 formula, I believe it's 40% of the black powder charge but check me on that, 24 grs. of IMR 4198 would be a starting charge under a 270 gr., + or - bullet. Not far off the little bit slower IMR 3031.


NRA Benefactor 2008
NRA Patron 2007
NRA Endowment 1996
NRA Life 1988
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 4,942
Likes: 344
Sidelock
**
Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 4,942
Likes: 344
Otto,
I thought the 9.5 had dies with it ,but I guess it was mold blocks instead. The Article has a picture of the button die and punch. The Dominion case with blown head is in the same picture.As stated in the article,I used a "truck load tool sale" hydraulic press to power it, but a heavy vise could be used also.To trim the cases I wound up using a piloted counterbore in my mill, because the modified rims wouldn't fit the "universal" shellholder in my case trimmer. You may find it easier to trim before modifying the rims.It is important,however,not to turn the rims to dia. until they are modified(longer is easier to bend).
Sharps4590 advice for 4198 is good- we also have good luck with 5744, and Unique or Red Dot.
Mike

Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 59
Sidelock
OP Offline
Sidelock

Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 59
Vic. I'll probably start with BP and then decide whether to try the 4198. I can't find any cases at Buffalo arms and will need to turn or form a couple of cases.
Mike. Yes the combination gun did come with 9.5X47r dies.
I found the picture of the punch and die but can't visualize the forming process. Is the process described somewhere ? My main interest is in machining and I have little experience in reloading. Luckily, I have a friend who is a reloader, and can help in assembling the cartridges.
The drilling wouldn't close on the 9.5X47r cartridges as I suspect that they are head spaced on the shoulder (45-70 rim in unaltered at .070"). Could I simply pull the 9.5 bullets and push the shoulder back until they will chamber in the 10.5 and then fire form them ?
Otto

Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 627
Likes: 47
Sidelock
**
Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 627
Likes: 47
Sure you could Otto and that should work admirably, if headspacing on the shoulder is why the action won't close.

This is more question than comment, but, when reforming A-base brass from 45-70 or other parent cases, isn't the rim....bent(?) or formed....forward, towards the case mouth? Is that what the die and punch being discussed are for?


NRA Benefactor 2008
NRA Patron 2007
NRA Endowment 1996
NRA Life 1988
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 4,942
Likes: 344
Sidelock
**
Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 4,942
Likes: 344
Vic,
You are correct,bending the rim forward is exactly how it works.
Otto,
The 45-70 case is placed in the die, the punch is inserted into the case and force is applied to the punch(in my case,by a press)to force the case into the die. If you make one,make a recess of a diameter to closely the 45-70 rim.This is just to "locate" the case,so depth is not critical. Inside this recess,and concentric with it make another,slightly larger than the solid head part of the case head(about 1/2" depending in the particular cases to be used).This recess should be deep enough to "make up" the difference in rim thickness.If the 45-70 rim is .070" and you need .095",the depth should be .025",plus a couple thousanths for "spring back".I made the punch to fit inside the case pretty closely and hardened it.I was learning to make cases from 7mm mag and 8x50R Lebel, so I needed to apply a lot of pressure. Using 45-70 cases is so much easier that I'm not at all sure the punch needs to be hardened.Handloading will be a lot easier to you,because you are a machinist."A lathe is a necessity of life".
Mike

Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 59
Sidelock
OP Offline
Sidelock

Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 59
Many thanks to all who have responded to my question.
I've been using my 20 ton press as a quick barrel vise and the case forming will give it another use.
I have a few projects ahead of the S&M but will revisit this thread with a report after a trip to the range.
Otto

Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 59
Sidelock
OP Offline
Sidelock

Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 59
Last August, I started this thread on a Double Rifle Drilling, in caliber 10.5X47R, made by Schlegelmilch and Metzner sometime in the late 1890's. Part of the discussion focused on producing cartridges for this rifle and some recommended starting loads. This post details the production of 10.5X47R cartridges and the results of the initial fire forming process.
I decided to alter the rims of the cases instead of trying to head space on the shoulder and used the method as recommended by Mike in the preceding discussion.
Attached are pictures of the punch and die as well as a shot of the tools in the hydraulic press. The little 8 ton press was satisfactory and I was surprised at how consistent the ram movement translated to rim movement.



After bending the case rim forward, the cases are put on a fixture to set the rim thickness and diameter as well as the cartridge over all length.
I used Starline 40-65 cases as the donor case and these fit the chamber without further sizing.
The cartridge charge of 4198 was determined by a formula suggested by Ross Seyfried. I filled the case to the neck with FFg black powder (50 gr ), and then used 40% of that weight of 4198 smokeless powder (20 gr). Then the case was filled with polyester fill.
The original bullets are said to have ranged from 260 gr to 298 gr by COW. I took a 410 gr bullet intended for a 405 Win (.412") and cut it back while creating a hollow base and a final weight of 275 gr.
The S&M is a joy to shoot. The heavy weight of the drilling and mild charge produce minimal recoil. The fire forming produced 20 usable cartridges that fell from the chamber with no signs of excessive pressure.

Now to find a suitable bullet and work up a proper load. Anyone with any suggestions?
Otto

Page 3 of 4 1 2 3 4

Link Copied to Clipboard

doublegunshop.com home | Welcome | Sponsors & Advertisers | DoubleGun Rack | Doublegun Book Rack

Order or request info | Other Useful Information

Updated every minute of everyday!


Copyright (c) 1993 - 2024 doublegunshop.com. All rights reserved. doublegunshop.com - Bloomfield, NY 14469. USA These materials are provided by doublegunshop.com as a service to its customers and may be used for informational purposes only. doublegunshop.com assumes no responsibility for errors or omissions in these materials. THESE MATERIALS ARE PROVIDED "AS IS" WITHOUT WARRANTY OF ANY KIND, EITHER EXPRESS OR IMPLIED, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, THE IMPLIED WARRANTIES OF MERCHANT-ABILITY, FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE, OR NON-INFRINGEMENT. doublegunshop.com further does not warrant the accuracy or completeness of the information, text, graphics, links or other items contained within these materials. doublegunshop.com shall not be liable for any special, indirect, incidental, or consequential damages, including without limitation, lost revenues or lost profits, which may result from the use of these materials. doublegunshop.com may make changes to these materials, or to the products described therein, at any time without notice. doublegunshop.com makes no commitment to update the information contained herein. This is a public un-moderated forum participate at your own risk.

Note: The posting of Copyrighted material on this forum is prohibited without prior written consent of the Copyright holder. For specifics on Copyright Law and restrictions refer to: http://www.copyright.gov/laws/ - doublegunshop.com will not monitor nor will they be held liable for copyright violations presented on the BBS which is an open and un-moderated public forum.

Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5
(Release build 20201027)
Responsive Width:

PHP: 7.0.33-0+deb9u11+hw1 Page Time: 0.066s Queries: 35 (0.022s) Memory: 0.8553 MB (Peak: 1.9016 MB) Data Comp: Off Server Time: 2025-10-21 13:26:24 UTC
Valid HTML 5 and Valid CSS