doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion German & Austrian Sporting Guns @ doublegunshop.com Drilling Marking Question

I recently acquired a Schlegelmilch and Metzner drilling and am trying to understand the meaning of its markings. This hammer drilling has a double rifle (chamber casting pending) over a 16 gauge shotgun. In addition to the markings shown in the photos the barrels are marked "Witten ER Special Stahl".
Do you think that the #380 on the action is the serial number? If so what is the highest S&M serial number recorded?
Do you think that the mark on top of the 16 within a circle is a crown over V mark?
I assume that the 16 within the circle indicates that the shotgun barrel is 16 gauge. What does the 16/1 indicate?
What is the meaning of the 78/41 on the barrel flats?
Does anyone have any information on Witten Special steel?
Does anyone have any information on Herr Metzner?
I'll post the photo's separately.
Otto

[img]http://[IMG]http://i585.photobucket.com/albums/ss291/otn/Schlegelmilch%20and%20Metzner/th_file-2.jpg[/img][/img] [img]http://[IMG]http://i585.photobucket.com/albums/ss291/otn/Schlegelmilch%20and%20Metzner/th_file-6.jpg[/img][/img] [img]http://[IMG]http://i585.photobucket.com/albums/ss291/otn/Schlegelmilch%20and%20Metzner/th_file-7.jpg[/img][/img] [img]http://[IMG]http://i585.photobucket.com/albums/ss291/otn/Schlegelmilch%20and%20Metzner/th_file-9.jpg[/img][/img] [img]http://[IMG]http://i585.photobucket.com/albums/ss291/otn/Schlegelmilch%20and%20Metzner/th_file-10.jpg[/img][/img] [img]http://[IMG]http://i585.photobucket.com/albums/ss291/otn/Schlegelmilch%20and%20Metzner/th_file-18.jpg[/img][/img] [img]http://[IMG]http://i585.photobucket.com/albums/ss291/otn/Schlegelmilch%20and%20Metzner/th_file-19.jpg[/img][/img]

Chipmaker
( Can I assume you are a machinist?)The photobucket photos are too small to be of much use to me and I'm not smart enough to "blow them up". The 78/41 is the caliber of the drilling expressed in ga. This equates to 9.91mm and is the bore diameter,not groove or bullet diameter.As you mentioned, a chamber cast is necessary to determine the nominal caliber. The 16 in a circle is the chambering of the shotgun barrels and the 16/1 is the barrel diameter ahead ov the chamber.The rifle caliber marked this way means the drilling was made between 1893 and 1912,when the 1911 changes to the proof law came into effect. This age drilling wouldn't have a crown over V proof, it would however have a crown over U, which is the mark for "view" proof( a detailed inspection).I expect someone else will come along and address the steel type and Herr Metzner.
Mike

Need something other than then thumb images, or post the photobucket folder.

Suhler Waffenfabrik Schlegelmilch & Metzner existed until 1901 and then Suhler Waffenfabrik Robert Schlegelmilch was formed and existed until 1923. Seeing Robert Schlegelmilch examples in the 1912-1923 period suggest that he was active during this period and Daly doubles with proof dates in 1924 just might be his work. He did source the tube making to the Kelber boys as did many others during this period mainly due to economics. Post 1923 the possibility exists that the "R.S." initials could easily be for Richard Schüler seeing there is documentation that links Schoverling, Daly & Gales with Richard Schüler.

http://doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=236145&page=12

Looks like a stylized SS set of initials just above the proofmarks. It has a repair stamp.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Are the 2 top tubes rifled?

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=297766079

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

How about initials I've circled?


Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

I think I see a "Crown" over "G" solid projectile stamp on both upper tubes.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Here are some closer photos.
Raimey. Yes both rifle barrels have the crown over G proof and are rifled.
Just behind the forend hanger there is another mark not shown on the original photos.
Mike. The questionable crown over V shows better on the enlarged photos. I wonder if it might the mark for guns "in stock" when the proof law of 1891 went into effect.
I plan to do a chamber cast tomorrow but a .393" gauge pin fits well in the bore.
Otto

Otto,
Can you please include a pic of that mark behind the forend hanger?

m4220