doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion German & Austrian Sporting Guns @ doublegunshop.com Drilling Marking Question

Thanks to all who have responded.
Mike. Could you explain how the 78/41 is converted to gauge and into mm. The 9.91mm (.3901") is consistent with my measurement of .3930". Also how does the /1 change the diameter of the 16 gauge ? Chamber cast tomorrow.
Raimey. I've attached photos of the marks that you circled. Yes the top tubes are rifled. I'll include some of the bore with the chamber cast. Do you know anything about Metzner? Did he retire/die in 1901 ?
m-4 . The mark that you asked for is the one on the bottom just above your post. It looks like an (*) to me.
Otto

I'll touch on the pre rifled bore diameter but Ford can elaborate. It is the same as 16 lead spheres per pound.


Axel's contribution

http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=213433#Post213433

First, I thought we might see an M for Metzner or an AM for Albin Metzner but I don't see it. I don't think the Metzner fella expired but he and Robert Schlegelmilch just split the sheet. I've seen listings for an Albin Metzner and also for Georg & Max Metzner. Some sources suggest it was the same person Albin Georg Max Metzner?? I have an inkling that he/they may have been an employee or sub for Sauer???

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

The chamber cast shows 6 lands and groves and the twist is 1-29". The rifle barrels appear to be chambered for the 10.5X47r.
Remaining Questions
Do you think that the #380 is the serial number?
Do you think that the crown over V above the 16 inside the circle is the "in stock" mark of 1891 ?
Is the stylized SS above the proof marks the barrel makers/fitters mark?
Anyone familiar with Witten ER steel?
Otto

Otto,
The "crown G" mark is clearer in the larger photos( assuming you mean the mark next to the circled 16). I don't know if there was a standard stamp for applying these marks,but yours is different than the one on my sxs combo.When these marks(Vorrat Zeichnen)were used none of the other marks were applied,because the proofs were not administered.The only reason I didn't say that it couldn't be the crown V because of the other marks,is that it shows the "repair"proof.When the repair(whatever it was) was done,I guess the other marks could have been applied then. On the other hand, the different form of the mark is still a little questionable.You asked how I calculated the dia. of the barrel from the ga.mark.I didn't calculate it I used a table similar to the one Raimey provided.I believe the 380 is the serial number. Others are better able to address the SS mark and the steel type. Without dimensions,the chambercast does look like 10.5x47 and this would fit the caliber marking and the age of the drilling.If the rifle were mine, I would use modified 45-70 for cases rather than cut off 43 Mauser.
Mike

Mike.The chamber cast dimensions were the same as those for the 10.5X47r in COW except for the cartridge base (.510" vs .513"), rim diameter (.595" vs .591"), and case length (1.77" vs 1.85"). I've never formed cartridges before. Will the 45-70 brass with a base of .500" be a problem when fired in the .510" base chamber?
So the 16/1 would be a smaller ball than 16. Therefore more number of balls to the pound and therefore a smaller diameter (Choke?) or is it the other way around?
You say that the form of the "V" is different than the one on you combination gun. It is also different than in my copy of the proof mark directory. However, I'm not sure what else it could be and would date the drilling to 1891.
A serial #380 seems low and would fit an early production gun but I don't know the serial number range for S&M guns. If they ceased business in 1901, does anyone know when Schlegelmilch and Metzner started business ?
Witten steel. There is a great reference, from this forum, for Witten steel by none other than a preceeding responder to this thread, Rainey. Reference #138418 from 3-2-2009. The Wikipedia reference states that Witten went bankrupt in 1881. After they were reorganized, it is said that they ceased making gun barrels. Witten steel is said to have been used by Schmidt and Habermann, Schuler, and Colt. Does anyone know of a Witten steel barrel dated past 1890 ?
Otto

Otto,
There is an article in WAIDMANNSHEIL issue46,Spring 2011,entitled 11mm Ammo and Rifles,which would answer many of your questions. If you are a member of German Gun Collectors Assn.,a copy is avaliable from them. If you are not a member, I encourage you to join.The differences in dimensions you cited are not unusual( except the length-maybe recheck) and would cause no problems with 45-70 brass. You didn't mention the rim thickness ( measure the depth of rim recess), but these are usually what we refer to as "A" base or "Mauser Base" cases. If the case is "A"base, the article describes how to modify the 45-70 rims to make the "A" base. The 16/1 is in the bore of the main part of the barrel and not the choke- the crown W mark shows the barrel is choked-usually pretty tightly.16 ga is about 16.81mm,and 16/1 is about 16.99mm ( the 16ga & 16mm is only happenstance-12ga is in 18mm range). Sometimes small marks resemble other marks and are misread, especially workmens marks. I don't usually "run myself ragged" trying to figure them out. If a barrel is made of Witten (or Krupp or other)steel, it wasn't necessarialy made by Witten. Others are more versed on this subject than I am.You didn't say what the barrel's groove diameter is. It is likely that some common bullet diameter can be used by sizing or paper patching, if not directly.BTW did you make a cast of both rifle chambers?
Mike

Berger was pretty influential for a time. Below is some of Axel's finds on the steel topic, specifically on the Berger locks:

"First, I got a lot of information from an article by D.ZIESING in the DWJ and from contemporary books by ZIMMER (1869), KOCH (1891) and CORNELI (1884).
C.L. Berger (1794-1871) pioneered the making of cast small arms barrel steel, Krupp in Essen at that time concentrating on big guns, artillery. In 1854 Berger founded his Gusstahlwerk in Witten on Ruhr, soon aided by his sons Louis and Carl junior. Berger's Wittener steel in short order became standard on the Prussian army Dreyse needle fire rifles, but he did not only supply his steel to Dreyse's factory, but also to the German state arsenals. During the 1860s to 70s he exported vast amounts of his barrel steel to America, among this special order bar stock of 44mm diameter. His customer in the USA: Colt in Hartford, Conn.! So the barrel and cylinder of your "All American" Colt Peacemaker is made of Wittener Stahl! But "Carl Berger & Comp., Gusstahlwerk und Waffenfabrik" also established it's own gunmaking department. Two years after the death of the founder, in 1873, the company went out of control of the family. In 1882 the gunmaking branch was closed and the Wittener steelworks concentrated on supplying raw material to the guntrade, soon under competition from Krupp, who only then got interested in the small arms market.
According to Corneli the Bergers invented not only their improved coil spring striker lockwork, but also the familiar "Teschner-Collath" slide-and-tilt breech action! Teschner merely improved it by substituting conventional "Blitz" trigger plate locks, as many people then mistrusted coil-spring powered strikers on hunting guns. But Berger's striker locks can not have been entirely unpopular, as they were later used by other makers on centerfires like this double rifle, called Prince Pless guns. I have seen them combined not only with the original slide-and-tilt action, but also with the common Lefaucheux double bite break open and the original underlever Roux, known as the "Schneider-Daw" in Britain by Crudgington-Baker.
Both Berger and Teschner used combustible paper needle fire cartridges without an obturating base wad, but unlike N.v.Dreyse, who mounted the primer on the rear of the wad, placed it on a cardboard holder at the base of the cartridge, so shortening the fragile needle considerably. But at that time the ballistic virtues of "fore" or "aft" priming were much discussed. It was accepted then that firing the powder charge from the front end led to more complete combustion and increased velocity. Reminds me of Elmer Keith, who took great pains to keep the virtues of his "duplex loads", lighted from the front of the charge, secret from the Germans. Only after the first metal based cardboard true centerfire cartidges appeared, Collath as the successor of Teschner introduced his own design of needlefire cartridges. These had the obturating base wad and rimmed metal base of the centerfire, but the tube was still thought to be combustible and was made of rather thin paper. Collath's firing needle now was part of the cartridge, sort of short nail driven into the primer by the striker. Though these cartridges look much like ordinary centerfires, they are not interchangeable, as the hulls are much thinner, but the guns may be rechambered to use shotgun cartridges as we know them today. At those times, before the advent of the drawn brass centerfire case, Germans used "bore" rifles of 24 to 16 gauge with shortened shotgun cases for their hunting. Zimmer dismissed the use of those new-fangled military small-bore cartridges of about 11mm or.450 as completely unsporting!"

The firm limped on from 1881 and transitioned to Wittener Stahlrohren Werke Witten a. d. Ruhr - R�hrennalzwerke Aktien Gesellschaft Gelsenkirchen Schalke by 1907. I can't say for sure if the Belgians had an interest or not.


Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Probability holds for Sylvestr Schilling for the gothic script SS. Many of the Lindner-Daly's had Witterner stahl tubes. I don't recall the last offering with that, possibly circa WWI? I think the Wittener concern had a 150 year celebration in 2004?


Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Mike. Thanks for your reply and the Waidmannsheil reference. I've been a member of the GGCA since its founding but when I read your article, I didn't have the 10.5X47 rifle. For any readers wanting to review this article, it is in Summer 2011 issue (not Spring).
The rim is thick at .095". My case length measurement of 1.77" does not include the rim which would make the correct case length 1.86". The groove diameter is .417".
I have another old combination gun that is chambered for the 9.5X47r and came with 18 rounds of ammo formed from 45-70 as you suggested. I was originally going to turn 6 cases for test firing but I'll check the 9.5X47r rims and if thick enough, fire form a few cases just to test fire the drilling.
Otto

Raimey. Do you know if Witten made any barrels after 1881 ? If a barrel is stamped with a manufacturer's name, how likely is it that the steel is the one stated ? Were there any laws governing things like this or was it left up to the integrity of the manufacturer ?
Do you have any idea when Schlegelmilch and Metzner started their business?
Otto