doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion Classic & Custom Single Barreled Sporting Rifles @ doublegunshop.com Montana Custom Gunmaking Seminar 2012

We are well into day four of the Seminar. Day One began with an orientation, shop tour and choosing individual work stations.. the lecture/demonstration for day one was Designing and Developing a Full Scale Rifle Drawing.
In the process of doing the drawing of a single shot Winchester we discussed and studied stock design, architecture, rifle metalwork and furniture. Each phase of the design an each example of hardware studied individually examining as many example as were available. All stock dimensions were evaluated and discussed as they relate to rifle design an body ergonomics.
Drawing in Process


Completed Drawing with examples


Best, Steve

I attended a similar seminar by Phil Pilkington almost 30 years ago (1983), Steve.

Bravo for putting it on. It's very involved work.

Be they practitioner or aficionado, attendees will gain much.......and value it forever.

Good job Steve looks great

Will you do one next year? Who can attend?

Thanks guys, We just finished up six days and I'm beat...
Will post a couple of pix now and more in the future with great explanation. Looks good for next year, maybe with advanced or expanded format.
The second order of focus was forging, filing, hardening, tempering and sharpening inletting tools.
Robert files a bench made chisel.


Lee filing an inletting scraper.

A few more... three students and myself.
Lee Brought a Ruger #1 with a pre-machined walnut stock.

He is using his newly made scraper on the inletting.


Robert scraping the inletting of his Montana bolt rifle stock.


Nick taps home a High Wall fit to a walnut stock.

That would be the one featured in the Gun Digest Custom Rifles book? A historic event brought to many folks via the book. You were a lucky guy to be there...
I was fortunate to do the first Longrifle Seminar at Western Kentucky back in the 1980s, with Wallace Gusler, Lynton McKenzie, John Bivins and other instructors.

The Pilkington seminar featured in that Custom Guns book was his first, held in 1980.

I attended his 2nd seminar in 1983. Ron Lampert covered metalwork in both.

Pilkington held a 3rd seminar......I believe in 1985. I have not heard or read any review of it.

Nice work Steve! ... and what a great idea ..

A couple more pix, I've a few hundred from three cameras to sort through. Will post an extensive page on my website over the next few days, for those interested...

Pistol gripping Nick's High Wall Tang


Discussing stock blank quality and layout.

Interesting photo of bending the tang. I would have though that the rear hole would be filled with a fitted bolt in the rear screw position, and that you would mould it by clamping between blocks in a vice instead of just "tailing" it like it was a salmon.

Pretty interesting photos for sure.

Maybe you should think about taking the class... or teaching it?
Most folks tend to over-complicate processes they haven't attempted.
I like that "tailing a salmon" phrase...

The tang came out great and was completely inlet with tang bolt and wood screw installed. Nick also managed to get the buttplate inlet and installed.
There will be more pictures of the process on the website in a few days.

Just curious was all. Sorry to upset the airwaves.

BrentD,
I would guess you would "tail" it if you were only going to do one, and make a bending fixture if you intended to do several.
I didn't sense any upset in the airwaves,it just seemed like a normal question that got a normal answer.
Mike

I've heard urban legends of folks who had fabbed such tang-bending fixtures but have never seen any of them or talked to anyone who claimed to own, have used or have ever even seen such an animal. Over the years I've bent several, as well as re-bending some of Bubba's efforts, and always found that 'tailing' it while using a hand-held template like Steve's was the best approach, at least for me it has been. The open access to both the top and bottom of the tang allows localized heating by the OA torch without the aggravation of having the clamping fixture suck the heat away from the area to be bent.

I did, however, fab a useful little wall lever-bending jig, allowing easy removal of most of the over-center lost motion in the wall's linkage design. Frank de Haas details making & using this fixture in several of his single shot articles.
Regards, Joe

The low wall I have was bent in purpose-built fixture. And, I've bought inexpensive actions that were cracked or broken through that last screw hole, and seen one or two with a rather distorted looking hole.

Hence, my question. I'll not bother again.

There are a few tricks and cautions, but I offer the class because the methods can be conveyed directly without the misunderstandings associated with the internet.
I thought a picture would speak a thousand words...

Why don't you show us the "purpose built fixture"?

Because I don't have it. I didn't do it. I simply own the end product.

Also a special set-up for drilling the tang bolt and reaming the screw taper that locks the stock to the action, but these photos are not enough to fully understand.
...and a drill jig for aligning the wood screw, and...

Brent
Have you seen the fixture, if yes maybe you can describe it?

Steve is the "driller" in the pic, without his index finger on his left hand, my compliments...your pic goes far to debunk the perception that if you want to do it right you need a CNC whatcamacallit. Makes me think of all those fine fine rifles and shotguns made with that most modern of milling machines called the "file" in the centuries gone by.

Steve is the guy holding the torch. His long, lost third cousin by marriage from Oklahoma Nick Hughes brought the High Wall project and did work. Nick is owner of J-S Machine, a quite accomplished custom metalsmith and a more that competent craftsman.


Rasping the grip to the finished tang


Robert beginning his first skeleton grip cap installation. Note the precision tool...

BTW: Robert's grip cap inlet came out very nicely, all done with hand tools, as was the focus of the Seminar.
Cap and inlet.


Using a scraper Robert made the previous day.


Another job well done...

Brent, I've found that the main key to a successful bend is to heat the steel to a red heat and hold it there while bending. Before the tang is heated it's often rather brittle, as you have seen. The factory bend does not begin until behind the tang's machine screw position and Bubba obviously doesn't know this, also Bubba apparently doesn't believe in heating/annealing the tang before and during the bending process.

IMO Steve is doing the single-shot community a GREAT service by sharing his pics with us. I wish more smiths were skilled enough (AND confident enough in their skill level!) to share their tricks as Steve is doing, but all too many of them don't.

Brent, please don't stop asking questions! Hey, I just gotta ask YOU one: haven't you ever told your students that old (but still tried-&-true) chestnut about "The only dumb question is the one you DON'T ask!"?

And also remember that anyone who resents your questions or even your challenges is probably not very confident in his ability to justify his position, ergo his position may be somewhat weak when examined closely (grin). Cast your memory back to another forum.....
Regards, Joe

Thanks for your support JD. I can be frustrating to post a picture of something actually in process and have someone question the methods based on imagination or hearsay. I've heard about bending jigs as well but have never seen one.

I have an original deluxe High Wall stock for comparison, but this tang was being bent to fit a pre-machined stock so a new cardboard template was made. It was compared to the original stock as well.

The tang was slightly under-bent the first time, partially inlet, then tweaked with a bit more bend and a touch of cant to straighten. Two heatings total, and plenty of cooling time afterward.

While I've made plugs to fill the multiple holes of a Win. 73 tang, I haven't found it necessary for a High Wall. In fact, clamping the "salmon tail", protected with a fold of copper sheet, lessens the possibility of heating and distorting the wood screw hole at the end.

Each Model Winchester or Marlin tang requires a bit different procedure for pistol gripping. Experience is the final word.

Best,
Steve
BTW: plans are being made for next year's Seminars...

Oh for cryin' out loud. Quit the whining. I was only asking a simple question. Why post it if you don't want questions. Or is all about collecting adulation?

Bending jigs are something that I know two well regarded gunsmiths use. If you don't more power too ya, but don't get so high on your hobby horse that you get dizzy from the lack of oxygen up there.

From my own perspective, when I asked the friggin' question (which is NOT to say I was QUESTIONING YOUR METHOD), it was only to see if you were fine tuning a bend to a particular curve after having first done the major shaping in a jig or if you were simply free-hand bending for some obscure shape that suited your purposes.

Anyway, have fun up there, but don't expect me to be licking your boots anytime soon.

Brent

PS. I think JD was RIGHT ON THE MONEY when he said, "anyone who resents your questions or even your challenges is probably not very confident in his ability to justify his position".

Sorry I hurt your feelings commenting on pseudo techniques by unknown experts.
I'll try to be more sensitive towards your criticisms in the future.
(Your depth of jealousy is quite surprising.)

Thanks for the apology. I'm sure it is heartfelt.

I've seen enough of you two guys on various forums over the years to know that both of you are ENTIRELY too prickly! (grin)

And believe me, it takes some mighty off-the-wall behavior to prompt such an opinion from ME, since in the past I've been the notorious poster child for Provocative & Infuriatingly Embarrassing Confrontations! (VBG)
Regards, Joe

And I think several of us on here remember that previous forum.smile. whitey

Well this was a pretty cool thread...

My thoughts on the tang bending...it worked...myself being a machinist type would like to see a jig employed and I will at some point especially for my 92 and 90/06 tangs since I have multiples, however the 85 tang lends well to the method employed and JD and Steve are correct the screw hole is not affected.

I also should note we are working on Steves internet manners! he is very opinionated and it comes across the wrong way sometimes but his commitment to the custom gunmaking trade is very real and sincere!

The workshop was a great success Steve did a awesome job and it was a huge benefit to me.

Also something was said about cracked tang screw holes....using a jig I can see this being a problem because you could force the metal to move before it is ready especially since the jig is sucking the heat out quickly so care must be taken. By heating and bending with the vise grips we used very little pressure because the bend didn't happen until the metal was in a plastic state therefore a smooth stress free bend. You can control where you want the bend to occur simply by heating the needed area.

No matter the method used, the end product is all that matters. There is usually more than one way to skin a cat in this man's world!

This is how my friend John skins that particular cat. Fixture in the vice, pivot the lever out of the way and heat to cherry red, swing around and clamp. He has done several without problems, at least two or three for me over the years.