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Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 627 Likes: 47
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 627 Likes: 47 |
Thanks Mike....it isn't my first trip around the barn, it's just been a whlie since I made it....lol! Thank you for the info on finding the dimension of the straight rifling. I'll give it a whirl.
I was pretty sure I could size the .427's down and that the lube grooves would disappear if I did. Biggest thing right now is I have no die close to .415. I believe I have a .410 in the box that might work and I know there's a .406 for my 40-82. I'm making a list of things I need and a sizer and bullet mold top the list.
Let me ask you what your opinion is of rehardening the brass, how its done and the purchase of correct loading dies. Old habits die hard.
I only have one mold for my 40-70, a Lyman that casts about 408-410 grs. from my 25-1 alloy. I fear that is just too long and heavy. When I bought that mold for the rifle it shot so good I never tried another. MOA out to 600 yards satisfied me....I probably can't see that good these days....lol!
Oh well, this journey will contiue for several months...and I'm looking forward to it.
NRA Benefactor 2008 NRA Patron 2007 NRA Endowment 1996 NRA Life 1988
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Joined: Jul 2012
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 4,942 Likes: 344 |
Sharps, I never harden the brass, the necks workharden and may to be reannealed, if shot and sized enough.When I anneal,I hold the cases by the "head"with bare fingers.Believe me,the heads won't get hot enough to anneal this way.I think you are right that your 40-70 bullet is too heavy.The normal wt.of a 40-82 bullet is 260 gr.This is about the right weight for the 10.5x47R.If you size to .406,what is the as cast diameter? If you have the mold,I think it would be worthwhile to try a few "as cast" from 1-40,pan lubed,with Black Powder.Even at .406, this bullet is .011 over bore dia.Sometimes they give acceptable accuracy with bore diameter bullets( I mean old BP cartridge and muzzle loading rifles).There is another thread on this forum about "simi-custom mold", I think they have a link to a company that will make a mold for you.Lee bullet sizing dies come in an amazing number of diameters, and if you pan lube,they work fine. A friend of mine shoots a .416 Taylor and i'm pretty sure .416 is a standard dia.for his Lee outfit.You didn't say what kind of lubricator you have, so I can't make another suggestion.Since you are making good cases,if you send a couple to a loading die maker, they will make you a custom set. With modern CNC machines, they just scan the fired case and bore a die.They are much cheaper that way than having to make a reamer.Hornady recently would do this for $80, but I don't know the current price.I like to use existing dies, when I can, but in the case of the 10.5x47R,I can't think of another useable caliber anyway.Infact,the 10.5 would windup being the set I would use for other calibers. Mike
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Joined: May 2010
Posts: 234
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 234 |
Sharps, Have you contacted Dave Davison at CH4D as yet? He's very knowledgeable and a real pleasure to talk to. He's been very helpful for me over the years and if you look at his catalog he lists the price of making a 10.5X47R and boat loads of others. As has been the case for me in the past you just never know, he may just have one in stock. http://www.ch4d.com/catalog/dies/caliber-listTel: 740/397-7214 Buchseman
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Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 627 Likes: 47
Sidelock
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OP
Sidelock
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 627 Likes: 47 |
Mike, I was wondering about the cases work hardening on their own. You confirmed what I suspected, thank you. I do not know what my 40-82 as cast size is and I haven't loaded any in years. I do believe I have some cast up, if I can find them. I had even forgotten I had the .406 die until I grabbed it by mistake the other day. It's never been in a sizer/luber so my cast for the 40-82 must be fairly close to .406. That would be the perfect bullet, eh? I do know its effectiveness on game too as I've taken deer and hogs with it.
I have acquired molds from Accurate Molds and have been very satisfied with both Tom and his product. His selection is.....enormous! And he'll customize them for your needs. Kinda the same with a sizing die. There is a gentleman in California, Rick Tunnel I believe, and he's cut a sizing die for me in .505. As perfect as one could ask for. Those will more than likely be my sources for a mold and sizer. From the one job each they've both done for me I believe I can recommend them without any fears. I was certainly a happy camper.
I have both Lyman and RCBS sizer/lubricators. One for smokeless and one for black powder lubes. I'm more than open to suggestions!!!! I have never tried the Lee dies. Are they done by hand? Seems like I remember that being the case....but never trust an old guys memory!!
I still have the chamber cast too.
Buchse, thank you for that link, that's what I was looking for but couldn't remember his name.
NRA Benefactor 2008 NRA Patron 2007 NRA Endowment 1996 NRA Life 1988
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Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 246 Likes: 6
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 246 Likes: 6 |
On the straight rifling in your shotgun tube: Such rifling was not meant to shoot ball or slugs in the first place, but to improve shot patterns! Apparently, it was somewhat more popular and longer in use in Austria than in Germany. Some years ago I answered a question on this matter for the German Gun Collectors Association. It was subsequently published in "Der Waffenschmied" #33, Summer 2007. Here is my original answer: Straight rifling of shotgun barrels is one of those bright ideas in gunmaking which are reinvented about once every generation, just to be forgotten again because the gains are not rewarding the efforts. The earliest example that fell into my hands was inside a ca. 1760 single barrel, 14 gauge flintlock bird gun (fusee) by one of the Kuchenreutters. Zimmer: Die Jagd-Feuergewehre, 1877, §15/page 90, wrote that this old idea, which had been already rejected in former times, was in his time again recommended by some unscrupulous gunmakers. He dismisses it as worse than useless! (but he also rejects the idea of boring the barrels with a constriction at the muzzle = choke boring, which was invented then by Pape/Roper/Greener) I remember reading (about 1970, Gun Digest or Guns&Ammo?) that an American had again invented straight rifling as a vast improvement in trap guns. So I suppose it´s high time for someone to come up with the idea again! The theory behind the straight rifling is about this: When the shot/wad column is accelerated down a smooth bore, it is free to get some uncontrolled spin (for instance by the Coriolis force = the force that makes tornadoes twist). This spin would cause centrifugal dispersion of the shot after leaving the muzzle. By guiding the shot/wad this is to be avoided, thus improving patterns. About 1880 straight rifling was quickly superseded by advanced choke boring, which was much more effective in controlling patterns and easier to make, but could not be combined with rifling (the above mentioned American used interchangeable choke devices with his rifled barrel) As a bore-fitting round ball could not be used in a choke bore barrel (note the "not for ball" near the proof marks of early choke bore barrels), straight rifling was sometimes retained in ball gun barrels. Ball guns will invariably have rifle type sights! Perhaps it improved shot patterns from these barrels slightly, but it could not do much good to ball shooting: Even if the round lead ball is guided down the bore in a straight line, it is subject to the laws of exterior ballistics after leaving the muzzle, lacking any gyroscopic stabilisation of it´s own. So, straight rifling in ball guns was finally obsoleted by Col. Fosbery´s invention of the Paradox bore, a rifled choke which gives a stabilizing spin to the bullet without disturbing shot patterns too much.
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Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 627 Likes: 47
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 627 Likes: 47 |
Well I'll be darned kuduae. I don't believe I ever would have put that one together on my own. Sooo...given that mine has rifling, if that's what it's still called, would you think mine ok for round ball? There is virtually no marks on the barrel flats or water table. Just the 9.8, another number I beieve is 317 and some tiny little mark near the breech of the barrels on one corner. That one isn't even legible with a magnifying glass.
NRA Benefactor 2008 NRA Patron 2007 NRA Endowment 1996 NRA Life 1988
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Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 246 Likes: 6
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 246 Likes: 6 |
IMHO it is ok for round ball, but don't expect to get better accuracy than from a smoothbore. "Modern" slugs of the Brenneke type will give better accuracy from your rifled barrel too anyhow.
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Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 4,942 Likes: 344
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 4,942 Likes: 344 |
Sharps, The LEE sizing dies fit a loading press and the bullet is pushed through with the ram, it is similar to a "ring sizing die". This is altogether a useful piece of equipment.I don't have one, but a couple of my friends do. I still use an old Lyman and a STAR. The STAR is easy to make dies for, especially if you don't need the lube holes( pan lubing or paperpatching).The Lyman and RCBS are harder, because the plug inside the die has to be really close fitting. That reminds me, paperpatching is a valid way to make bullets when you don't have a large enough mold. Mike
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Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 627 Likes: 47
Sidelock
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OP
Sidelock
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 627 Likes: 47 |
kuduae, if it shoots as good with a round ball as my 20 bore flint fowler, and it only has the front sight, I will be as happy as a dead pig in the sun!
Mike, I remember that now that you mention it. I forget stuff....lol! I guess one of these days I am going to have to try paper patching. It would work admirably in this instance, with the 40-82 bullets.
NRA Benefactor 2008 NRA Patron 2007 NRA Endowment 1996 NRA Life 1988
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Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 4
Boxlock
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Boxlock
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 4 |
Thanks for referring me here. I will start a thread on my gun, but wanted to mention that I use 9x47R cases that I got, I think, from Fred Huntington, and fire form those in my rifle. It is a whole lot easier than cutting down 11mm Mauser cases.
Wayne
There is no 'right' that requires me to work for you or you to work for me! That is slavery,
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