doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion German & Austrian Sporting Guns @ doublegunshop.com Engelbert Clever Nachf Coln 16ga. Double Barrel

Raimey, may I draw your attention to the fact that "Herold" was Franz Jaeger's general trademark. It's use was not limited to a single desin, but Jaeger made and sold conventional break-open guns, drillings, single-shot rifles and even repeating rifles bearing his "Herold" trademark also.

Draw away Axel, but I'm yet to find the "Herold" term as a telegraph or telephone reference or filed trademark. Also, I don't see it in the turn of the 20th century adverts. It was 1903 or prior to 1903 when Carl Bittiner, of the firm of Bittiner & Jaeger, returned to Suhl to partner with Franz J�ger under the name F. J�ger & Company Suhl.









Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Sorry, Raimey, but your last post is completely wrong, from start to stop. Have a look at the 1910/11 catalog of F.J�ger & Co., reprint available from the GGCA bookstore, order # R013,
http://germanguns.com/cart/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=2&products_id=16
On the top left of the cover you may read: "Herold" / Eingetragene Schutzmarke. If this is not to be translated to "registered trademark", my German is even worse than my English. Further down in the same column you read: Telegramm-Adresse HEROLD-SUHL. For example on page 32 you find the "Herold-B�chse", a single barrel break open stalking rifle.
Carl Bittiner did not return, if he ever had been there, to Suhl and he was not a partner in the F.J�ger & Co. company. He staied in Liege. According to the book by Gadisseur & Druart: "Le Qui est Qui de l'Armurerie liegeoise" he returned from New York to Liege in 1902. His Liege addresses were:
1904-1905 rue des Premontres 28, 1906 rue Vivegnis and in 1907 rue Morinval 24. Rue Morinval 24 was the address of Paul Scholberg, holder of the "Record" trademark.
According to H.J. Fritze's book: "Suhl - Heimat der B�chsenmacher" Franz Jaeger returned to Europe in 1902, first to Liege also, but in 1903 he settled in Suhl. From 1907 on he took in a business partner with some money, a pharmacist from Jena named Ewald L�decke. This is the "Co." in Franz Jaeger & Co.

I'll capitulate on the telegram address and possibly the trademark as the 1910/1911 advert eluded me for a time and it maybe that he filed for the trademark after returning from the U.S. of A. as the adverts/info posted was pre-1907/1908 as with anything the info is time dependent. But a couple of American publications in 1902/1903 give that BOTH Bittiner & J�ger were enroute to Suhl after Franz J�ger could not acquire the mechanics to build his single trigger so he turned to the talented pool in Suhl. Since both were in American, I deem the American sources more credible on the whereabouts of Bittiner & J�ger for now. Hopefully additional info will develop the rest of the story.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Schoverling & Welles were agents of Franz E. J�ger and I'm sure played a part. I wonder what contribution Edmund Bittiner made to the overall effort?


http://www.google.com/patents?id=bxFpAAAAEBAJ&printsec=abstract#v=onepage&q&f=false

Forest & Stream, October 1903 notes that Carl Bittiner is to travel to Suhl in the coming months. He may have changed his travel plans?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

And Axel surely the Austrian patent office didn't have the wrong address as in this 1905 publication of their patent 9862 it gives NY for both parties, although it could have taken a year or so to compile.



http://books.google.com/books?id=k9pOAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA868&dq=bittiner+%26+j%C3%A4ger+new++york&hl=en&sa=X&ei=hjPhT_r7HYr48gSM7M2WDQ&ved=0CF8Q6AEwBw#v=onepage&q=bittiner%20%26%20j%C3%A4ger%20new%20%20york&f=false

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Interesting that a 1901/1902 joint German patent #130206 gives Franz J�ger as residing in Rampitz b/ K�tzschau while Carl Bittiner is still of New York.

http://depatisnet.dpma.de/DepatisNet/depatisnet?action=pdf&docid=DE000000130206A

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Rampitz is the birthplace of Franz Jaeger. His father, also Franz, and his mother, born Kersten and sister of Gustav Kersten, still lived there as small farmers and innkeepers. Franz Jaeger preferred to give a German adress when applying for this DRP, so he chose his home village.
BTW, on things that happened in America I believe in American sources, on matters that happened in Europe European ones. In this case American sources merely state that Bittiner and Jaeger left America in 1902, direction Suhl in Europe. Official European sources say Bittiner never got to Suhl, but had adresses as a registered gunmaker in Liege, Belgium, from 1904 to 1907 at least. European and family sources say Franz Jaeger first went to Liege too, but in 1903 opened a small shop in Suhl on M�hlh�gel, where his daughter Selma, mother of Dietrich Apel, was born Nov.9, 1904. At the same time, 1904, he moved to a better house at Schleusinger Strasse 19. In May 1907 Franz Jaeger together with L�decke registered "Franz Jaeger & Co.", trademark "Nimrod", and built a factory at Pfiffergrube 17. At the same time Carl Bittiner in Liege had moved to Paul Scholberg's adress.

Excellent digging there Axel as you seem to have found the missing pieces. With Franz J�ger's uncle being Gustav Kersten solves some mysteries. I'm a bit puzzled by the trademark Nimrod of Franz J�ger & chemist Ewald L�decke though as I thought that to be of Thieme & Schlegelmilch?



Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Anyone know how this Simson Verschluss stamp reads on this Max G. Fischer?

Simson ?????

Verschlu�

Jaeger Patent?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse