Jack, at my club no one is real, real serious - so we shoot some leagues international, some doubles, and then the wimps shoot regular. A number of us shoot gun down even at 8, and with the gun stock on your hip it's a crap shoot for us over 60. Same at SC's - at times we shoot gun down, no movement before you see the bird, up to 5 second delay, and all doubles even though I didn't set the course for them. One year we made the shooter walk forward and threw the bird whenever. Usually when the right foot was going forward. You want to talk about doing the 'Soupy Shuffle'. And there's the usual " talking " to the shooter as he's trying to shoot. I find when setting the course that curling, dropping birds give em fits. Paul