doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Winchester 21s without letters

Again, guys thanks for the input and feedback.

I would say to Homelessjoe that i agree with Shotgunjones that the 21 is a great day in day out gun for me. I have shot both 16s and the 12 gauge to death. They are still strong and kicking. I shoot them well. They are not dainty guns but I am 6.5 feet tall and weigh 230. Which means that the difference between 6 and 7 pounds is not that big of a deal.

Again, this is a great board. I always like the data I recieve from here. thanks, michael

You got it right, Michael. After reading endless discussions of the 21 here, I've come to consider it as a "shooters gun". People who shoot quite a bit seem to like it just fine.

I selected a skeet gun a few years ago, and have never regretted parting with the money. As a purpose built skeet gun, it excells. It's been on a couple pheasant hunts, and while less than trim and dainty, when the bird goes up the qualities of the 21 really shine.

The single trigger is as good as any I've ever used on any gun including K-guns and P-guns.

Prices are driven by supply and demand, and the 21 seems to be in demand.

Question one; "Who is selling this gun." Question two; "Is the serial number stamped in Winchester style on the water table of the barrels?" Question three; "If the barrels were installed aftermarket on an original 20 gauge gun, would it still be worth the price you are paying?" An original 20 gauge field or skeet grade gun with SST and AE is about an $8000 gun. A set of 20 gauge original barrels are worth about $2000. A similar set of 28 gauge factory barrels may be worth about $4000. The gun, if it appears absolutely original, but without documentation, is worth maybe $10,000 as a shooter, no more as a collector gun. Sorry if this doesn't jive with your $30,000 comparison. If you are interested in originality for future resale possibilities, maybe you should call Tony and ask him if he put the gun together from parts. He may tell you the truth. Personally, if the price were over about $9500.00, I would order a new gun from Tony.

You need to check the 21 prices a little more, eightbore. A 28 gauge in nice shape whether a collector or a shooter is going to cost a lot more than $10,000. The last Pigeon Grade I saw from the Custom Shop was going for $17,000 and I would say a 28 gauge would be worth a lot more if it is in excellent shape. And you really don't need documentation to buy or sell a 21 at a decent price. ......... Anyway, huntersdad, just because the gun doesn't letter doesn't mean it isn't original. I have eight 21s and I believe 3 don't letter. The 20 gauge I have, has a gap of three non-lettered guns on each side of it. Meaning were about six guns in a row that didn't letter during that run, according to Cody. Or the records were lost over the years. I'm just interested in how much the guy is asking and what the serial number is. And do all of the numbers match? But I guess you don't want to say. That's OK. And I wouldn't worry if the gun fit or not. Not too many people who buy guns like this are concerned if the gun fits. Keep in mind, too, that you can always ask Ed Ulrich and get his opinion. His e-mail address and phone number are in the DGJ. I have asked him questions over the years. Good luck.

Supply, there are only about 30k pre Custom Shop guns and about 1030 Win Custom Shop guns, USRAC produced a few but I have never seen #'s.
Quality, they will last forever and are easily refinished as the are high tensile steel recievers and need no case hardening.
CSMC pricing. A new base Model 21 is now $12.5K. This base Model corresponds to a Custom Shop 'Custom Grade'.
I agree about pricing for this gun, if a 28 gauge without documentation, most buyers will not touch it as they just don't have the years of experience to make an informed decision and that's a lot of money to spend. Even with years of expereince I would probably not purchase because it should be a rare gun and priced accordingly. The 20 gauge 21-6 set w/inlays in the case was offered to me for $20K and because it was on consigment, I know the price would have been lower but without proper documentation and the slight wood color cast, I felt it would be a waste of money. Everything else was perfect for the period. The Win 28 as i understand it was built with 20 gauge barrels bored to 28 gauge, hardly a field gun or a pleaseant gun to shoot, they and the Win410's are for collecting only. Me, I have my heart and mind set on a CSMC 'Baby' 28 gauge, a gun Win never produced and a logical extension to the line. -Dick

If this is a "struck barrel" 28, it would be worth whatever you think it's worth, but surely not within a couple of thousand of a new round frame gun from Tony. I earlier suggested $10,000 and other posters disagreed. Why would anyone pay within $1000 of one of Tony's new guns for a regular frame gun with no documentation and someone elses stock dimensions? I stand by my original statement; unless it is engraved, $10,000 is enough.

I visited CSMC this month and handled the new titanium framed Model 21 - this new 12Ga with 28" barrels weighs approx. 7 lbs. I also lusted over the new baby frame 28Ga Model 21. I saw a Grand American grade in the final assembly stage. I was told that all the parts are identical to the standard Model 21 only scaled down to the baby frame size. These two new Model 21's defintiely differentiate the CSMC Model 21 product from Winchester and USRAC.

Ken, did you ever see any of Bill Phifer's Model 21s? Some of the ones he ordered had two different gauge barrels on each set of barrels. I have pics of one set that has one barrel a 20 gauge and the other barrel a 28 gauge. Imagine the rukus this gun would create if someone saw it. He had it for sale a few years ago along with several other high grade 21s. Have you ever heard of these?

I believe this type of dual gauge is mentioned in Swing's book also. I personnally inspected a 20 gauge with the right barrel chambered and so marked for 2&3/4" and the left chambered and marked for 3". Should have purchased it!
BTW Bill wants to sell his entire collection as one entity. Kind of a strange person as I tried to communicate with him once.
I have one 20 gauge out of the 'Custom Shop' and that's probably all i will have! -Dick

Bill certainly has some Model 21s. I guess for a while he was ordering everything they made. I have seen (pics) of all the types of Presidential Model 21s and every configuration and gauge imaginable that he has. He must have a fortune in them. Two different gauges on the same set of barrels is really weird looking, though.