doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Long Range Hyperbole

No degrading Mr. Weed-digger at all- not his fault he's a Limey, that's a condition of birth- And calling him fat- well, seen any photos of: Fatty Arbuckle, Herman Goering (correctly spelling Goring with the umlat over the letter o) Jackie Gleason, W.C. Fields, etc- all masters of their art and craft, and all a tad beamish. I have no friggin idea what a P34 gun is- I collect and shoot German pistols, and a Walther P-38, damn fine weapon- doubt that's what the "Digster" uses to decimate those loooooong ranging "black ducks" in Limeyland--I make fun of the Limeys just as another Mick (heard of the late Jack O'Connor by the by?) did- when he penned these words: "You haven't been conned until you have been measured for a proper gun fit by a British gun maker"- of course, if The Digster doesn't shoot a Limey made gun, then all bets are off- P gun- Purdey? Powell? I'd like to see how he'd do in my 'neck of the woods" on crows with that gun, tight choke tubes and shells of his choice- pass shooting as he has perfected the art of which- is an art- Fred Kimble, Nash Buckingham, Paul Curtis- all "past masters"- but taking snarling incoming crows ready to "strafe" the Johnny Stewart caller in heavy foilage with a strong cross wind in a May Michigan crow shoot-that is, also an art-like to see how he'd fare at that-- crows ain't Sporting Clays- they have one trait also seen in decoying Canadas coming into a strong wind- when "spooked" they flare straight backwards- and the killing shots are then in a split-second at their feet-trust me on this--

I'm glad to see that not everyone has been brainwashed by the modern view that shooting anything beyond forty yards is unethical or impossible. If you doubt that long shots on game can be made consistently, or that the old guns were built with special features that made them tools for the sport, you have not looked into the matter.

The proof of anything is repeatability. I grew up watching men shoot trap for money. They consistently backed up from the trap circle into the parking lot, and shot targets about to hit the ground. Of course, what you can do depends primarily on the toughness of your target.

In my better days, I made some streaky runs at long range, but I have seen better shots kill birds at 75-80 yards with the certainty of doom. I never saw anyone do it that wasn't shooting an old gun. If you study the geometry of those guns, you will understand why they hold a pattern longer. A shotgun barrel is like a violin... it has an optimum harmonic. When shot is consticted slowly, it tends to stabilize the pattern. Modern barrels are pipes with washers on the end. Also, using high power loads tends to blow the pattern instead of tightening it. Light loads produce tighter patterns.

If you think that I am delusional, measure several old gun barrels marked long range "from end to end" and see what they have in common. People used to buy guns from Purdey "unbored" and send them to Ithaca to let them be brought "up to nick." They didn't do that for hyperbole.

The 1895 Montgomery Ward catalog mentions "Lefever Taper Boring" http://books.google.com/books?id=zWel51IwQ2AC&pg=PA450&lpg
When was that term first used by Lefever? An old thread describes a 4" choke taper for full choke
http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbt...&PHPSESSID=

The 1923 and 1925 Super-Fox brochures talk about the shells used in testing being loaded with DuPont De Luxe and DuPont Number 93. They then go on to say that -- "Unfortunately, De Luxe powder, the greatest shotgun powder that has ever been developed, is not now available to the public. It is not being loaded by any ammunition concern, and will not be sold to individuals--for which state of things we express sincere regret. However, Number 93 is a nearly similar powder in its action, and this propellant is being loaded by one of the great cartridge companies." They then show a Western Super-X pattern.

DuPont must have come up with a problem with De Luxe? At any rate, by 1928, all the talk is of DuPont Oval.

The description of the taper choke used by Lefever found in their catalogs was virtually unchanged from at least as far back as 1889 until they were bought by Ithaca. I have no idea as to how much farther back they go.

Thank you Dave and Miller

Since we cannot replicate these loads with the ingrediants of then, what in your opinion would be a good way to compare or try and demonstrate how some of these guns shoot these good patterns at long ranges?

L.C. Smith in some of their adds, stated that they would bore your gun to the pattern you wanted. You had to supply the information as to what hull you were using, and how many pellets you wanted to be in a 30" circle at the distance you stated, and they would bore the gun to shoot this pattern.

The Longrange/Wildfowl from the factory, was stated to shoot 15 yards farther with the same pattern. So if the standard was a 30" target at 40 yards, that is quite impressive.

You do not need Oval. Use any reasonably square load of a slow powder. In 12 gauge 2 3/4 drams of Green Dot under 1.25 oz with
a light primer is the place to start. However, all guns prefer load variations. You can be reasonably sure that a slow powder is the key.

I used to shoot Federal Game loads in a 16 guage. Most people say they are junk, but they worked like a dream out to long range. That's right... no shot cup, cheap powder, soft shot. Suddenly, I started dusting birds. I got ticked and called the supervisor at Federal. In their infinite wisdow, they had changed to high power powder!

Interesting, that old gun was designed with the same Lefever style barrels mentioned above. For any of you who will believe it, I can tell you what is required. My gunsmith measured mine. The barrel has to have full length tapering. The choke cone is long, 3.5 to 4 inches. The lead up to the choke is slowly angled. It would probably also be a good idea to have tight chambers.

If I told you how tight this gun (a cheap gun) shot, you would a call me a liar. Let's just say it takes a while to figure out how to hit with a pattern that small.

Volleyfire, better stand back a bit when you fire those 1 1/4 ounce loads with 2 3/4 drams of Green Dot. That much Green Dot is about three times the recommended powder charge, if there were a recommended load for 1 1/4 ounce using Green Dot. The recommended Alliant powder for 1 3/8 ounces of shot used to be Herco or Blue Dot, now Blue Dot, at least for AA hulls. The recipes are in the Alliant book.

Drew, I would suggest that you get your loads directly from the latest Alliant book available on their website. Some of the advice or suggestions on this thread could kill you. The previously mentioned 1950s Lyman book includes loads with twelve or more grains of Herco over what is recommended today. Another poster suggested that 75 grains of Green Dot would be a good starting point. Any load of Green Dot is unacceptable with 1 3/8 ounces of shot, but 75 grains? Better go to the book. Out of curiousity, I will go to my personal load book and find out how much Blue Dot and Herco I used to use for my 1 3/8 and 1 1/4 ounce lead loads.