doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com False Hammer Guns

John , I wish I knew the answer. It is nitroproofed about 10 years ago, weighs 6#, and is marked as #2 on the top rib. The top rib reads William Moore & Grey 43 Old Bond Street London 2. If it is a conversion, I cannot tell it, but the reproof covers the older proof marks. Now, let us find Number 1.

Would it being a 16 bore give more weight to it being a converted muzzle loader ? Of course the gun cannot be opened or closed unless the gun is in at least half cock position.

Daryl
I think there may be a bit of confusion - you have a false hammer gun by Moore & Grey and Joe also has one. Now I am no expert but I think your gun looks right and was built with dummy hammers. To convert a pin fire to a centre fire hammerless would have taken a complete rebuild to the mechanism - and why would you do that when you can simply drill through and put firing pins through and change the hammers over - wouldn't make sense. Now Joe's gun is different. Although there are 14 bore breechloaders it was a common muzzle loader calibre. I have to say that the cocking leavers on his gun do look a bit of an afterthought and not really in the style of the gun. Where the barrels fit the action it doesn't look quite right to me either. I am guessing it was a muzzle loader but exactly what I don't know. Again you have to ask the question �if it was a percussion then why replace a perfectly serviceable action with a completely new one?�. The back of the breach's look rounded so I doubt these ever had nipples - so these have probably been replaced as well. There appears to be more questions than answers to this one and maybe a real expert can shed some light. I could of course be completly wrong on both counts!!
John

Daryl,
Don't know how you came by the photo of the Warrilow Bently Patent, it is actually a photo from my web site, taken by yours truly of one of my restored guns. I am very happy for my photos to used as a resource but would appreciate a credit where appropriate.
Yes it is a totally barrel cocking action, there is no way that you could let the hammers down safely. The safety is automatic. It even has proper interceptor sears.
Joe's WM&G 16g was definitely a muzzle loader conversion, the barrels were fitted to table lumps as I remember and ,yes, the hammers do look a bit out of place but, although it is a 'hammerless' centre fire, there is no facility in the action for lever nor barrel cocking so hammers it had to be!

Toby, I have no idea how the gun pictures got into my Bentley file. If I had had to guess, I would have thought it was from some auction or something from a Bulletin Board. Surely , if I would have known they were yours I would give you credit. Yes, the automatic safety would make letting the hammers down a "thumb thing". There are examples of Bentley patent guns with much larger cocking/hammer pieces. I suppose that's why.

Toby
I may well be wrong but my guess is that Joe�s gun was originally a percussion gun and that someone has just unscrewed the breach block, which probably accommodated the nipples, then just machined a chamber into the back of the barrels. This would explain the nicely rounded back to the action which never had the nipples in them. I would think the original action formed the bases for the present action. It is non rebounding so would fit the period and my guess is that the internal hammer has just been fixed in someway to the inside of the hammer spindle. It would be nice to see how this hsa been done Joe - if ever you take the locks apart. My guess is that the pegged forend is original and the slot for the peg has been moved forward so that the barrels move back onto the face. This would not have been to big a job as the new underleaver locking lugs would have had to be fitted at the same time.
The external cocking leavers do look a bit crude, which is a shame, but they serve their purpose and have made a redundant gun a good working tool again. If you can remember the gun I would love to know if I am somewhere near the mark. Many of the Perrins guns have undergone some modifications and it is not always easy to work out what has been done to them.
John

What a great thread! Daryl - please indulge me while I ask the obvious; the false pinfire "cocks"...When the triggers were tripped and the initernal hammers did their thing did the "pinfire" hammers just smash down on the fences?

Daryl, No problem about the photo. I have passed it onto some who has specifically requested it for journalistic or rersearch purposes. That is how it probably found its way to you. If you want a few other photos of the guns you can find them at
http://www.heritageguns.co.uk/Warrilow%2012b%20SLNE/Warrilow%20SLNE%20Details.htm.
John, Joe actually posted a photo of the internals of his locks earlier in this thread. Although the locks are very likely the originals, the action is almost cirtainly not. It was a dedicated Jones Rotary Underlever action, made with a hinge pin for a breechloader, probably bought in as a forging from the trade and adjusted to suit.
Of course they may have reused the original wood for the forend but the iron would have to be new as a muzzleloading gun wouldn't have one.

I think I must be loosing the plot - how did I miss the photos of the locks. They do look very neat and made for purpose rather than a cobled together job. The pegged forend threw me a little as I have a couple of ML with barrels pegged to the wood - but of course no hinge - I am beggining to think it is an age realted issue!!!. I would imagin these conversions were always a toss up between the effort of modifying a piece or making a new bit from scratch with labour much cheaper in relation to the cost of materials than it is now.
Time for bed me thinks!
John

K Kid, when the gun is fired, the "pinfire" cocking levers move forward , but stop short of hitting the barrels or anything else. The levers do have a "half cock" bringing them back far enought so that the barrels can be lowered. Then the levers go to "full cock" , ready to fire. Actually the levers do cock very easily and are easy to reach for cocking on the quite small frame of this Grey patent gun.

Thank you, Daryl.