doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Blackbern 575arms Site.anyone? cheap German Guns

This guy has a load of reasonably priced German Guns Guns
I was wondering if anyone had bought one of his $800 Merkels?
or anything else from him
cheers
franc

Wow! What is the story on those guns. Many of them are as new. Are those the Red East German guns?

Thanks for the link Franc.

Best,

Mike

I wonder if he is mail order only?
He does have an address on the home page, but no shop hours.
As there are so many similar ones it would be nice to check em all out in the flesh.for one that looked better, or perhaps one with nicer wood.Also for gun fit, all he gives is lop.
But some do look in good/great condition, & the prices seem very reasonable, if things are as they seem.
Would be a pleasant afternoons work going through those to find a nice rainy day gun for under a 1000
I'd love to hear from some one who has looked or bought
franc

I've bought a couple of gun from Balckbern � good guy to deal with. That said, the reason the Big Name guns he is offering are so cheap is they are East German knock-offs, produced at the Ernst Thaelman Werke. Good, solid, work-a-day guns, but not what the names suggest.

Kyrie,
So those Merkels have no connection to a Merkel that you might buy today?
Can go down n pick through them in person?
cheers
franc

they are gdr guns, i dont think knockoff is a correct term.i had a gdr merkel it was very nicely finished inside and out.i think there were about 2000 people hand fitting guns at the ernst thalman plant.several name brands were produced.there are much nicer than a similar spanish gun.Franc they have more of a connection to pre war guns than what is being produced today.mc

Hi all, I've never bought from them, but I have heard that the guns they are good to deal with and the guns are as described.

GDR (DDR) shotguns were all made in the same factory as stated in previous posts, The Ernst Thalmann Peoples Works. The Reds labeled their guns with the names of pre war makers, such as Merkel, Sauer, Simson, Wolf to name some. And also under their own banner, Fortuna, Buhag etc. Basically all the same gun, just different names stamped on them.

The quality of these guns range from low end (for the common folk)to high class ones for Party Bigshots. They even had classifications for the guns quality. These codes can be found on the bbl lumps of the gun and are:

Q1 (since the early 60s) and �S� (until 1960) = superior quality over the average level of the world market
1 = good quality on the average level of the world market
2 = sufficient quality; adequate but below world market level

Perhaps someone who is an expert on German shotguns will chime in and expand on this.

All the best!

Greg

I have bought from both the son (Blackburn) and the father (Kebco.) The guns are as they state. Some of them are GDR guns built in the Ernst Thaelman Werke and others are older pre war guns built by Merkel, Sauer, Simson, and others. You can tell which are which and what is what by his descriptions and photos of the proof marks which he usually offers. The pre war guns are generally better made guns, but also generlly show more wear. The GDR guns can be good guns, depending. The prices are fair for what you get, and they are an honest importer bringing in many guns through their Swedish connection from all over Europe.
The first time I saw a four ring Krupp mark was on a set of these barrels, and our friend Geno explained that it was Russian steel used by Ernst Thaelman Werke for their barrels. I still have a couple of those guns, marked as Simsons, and have had good use from them.

Franc,

I always dealt with Carl Blackbern via e-mail (we live in different parts of the country) so I cannot speak to buying from him face to face.
The vast majority of his German guns are post-war Ernst Thaelman guns. The East Germans marked these as 'Merkel', or 'Simson', or 'JP Sauer & Sohn', or whatever name they thought would dress the gun up best. Counterfeit guns, essentially. The east Germans continued to mark Ernst Thaelman guns as 'Sauer' shotguns even after the genuine Sauer re-opened in West Germany in 1951.
Blackbern does get, from time to time genuine, pre-war or war time, Merkel, Simson, or Sauer shotguns. Ask about them, and pay attention to proof dates. Pre-war and war time guns will have proof years prior to 1945. Merkel and Sauer briefly resumed production after the war (1945 � 1947) before being expropriated by the East German government, and these guns are genuine but not as finely made as the pre-war guns. Guns with a proof date of 1948 or later are not related to Merkel, et. al.
Hope this helps.

Errr... I have to cordially and respectfully disagree with the phrase ' average level of the world market'. Having handled a number of these guns, and owned a few myself, I'd have to say more like 'average level of quality produced by a socialist state industry'.

Not bad guns, just work-a-day guns. The kind of gun one would take out on a bad weather day.

I would like to know if you guys was going to buy a donor double from this company what price range would you look for? Also and would deal with the German made guns? I need some help on this matter.

Hi Kyrie, the above comments about quality are taken from a German source:

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%BCtezeichen_%28DDR%29

Just a FYI.

All the best!

Greg

Here's an example of a Q1 gun, a 12ga SLE marked Buhag, I use this one for late season Pheasants:

All the best!

Greg

Greg, this is extra nice engraving - a Socialist Special!

With kind regards,
Jani

Gut kenne ich weing uber Deutsche Schrotflinten, aber morgens nicht ein Experte. Ich glaube, was Sie herren bekannt gegeben haben, um korrekt zu sein. Und da ich auch auf Sprache von Don Quixote auBerdem. Deutchscher und Spanien haben engen beziehungen fur Jahre gehabt und begonnen 1936 mit dem nazis Unterstutzung von Franco und obleight nicht Spanien aber Mexiko, die legendare Zimmerman Anmerkung von 1916- Prosit!!

So the Merkels with the scalloped receivers aren't actually Merkels? I've seen the Ernst Thalman guns listed separately as such but didn't realize the Merkels weren't really Merkels.

Was sind Ihre damit sagen?

I too have a Q1 gun. It's a dead ringer for this gun:

http://757arms.weebly.com/775simson.html

The ejectors don't even work as extractors, and the left hammer will cock about half the time. I use it for a door stop.

Bottom line: East German quality ratings aren't useful. Buy the gun, not name or 'quality rating'.

I don't see the "Q1" marking on either the Buhag or the one Kyrie linked to:

http://757arms.weebly.com/775simson.html

Its on the left side of the rear lump.

Hallo-- Ihr Deutscher Stil ist nicht im korrekten syntax- sind Sie verschend, zu fragenmich-- Was sind Sie sagend?? order moglicherweise was Sie versuchend zu sagen sind. Mochten Sie, damit ich fur Sie das deutsche und das Spanischen ubersetze, die ich in Antwort schreib? Ich wurde amerfreutesten sein, das fur Sie zu tun!!

Mark, yes those are merkel.that was the only mfg. of merkels at that time.i have seen a number of these guns with all the different names,fortuna,buhag,wolf,simpson,hubertus,sauer.i havent experienced the bad quality .the internal fit and finish is really good from what i have seen.the description that is given sounds more like the spanish gun reputation from a few years ago.sauer was in suhl when the commies took over so the west german plant was the new sauer mfg co.i would look at the gun and make a decision on how well it is made.mc

I cant speak for the German guns, I bought a Husqvarna from them a while ago, and the transaction was quick, clean and I got what I expected. I would buy from them again...

Que pasa aqui, cabron?? No estan una locale :http://groups.yahoo.comgroup/Spanish Shotgun Forum. Quizas usted es una loca en la cabeza??

Thanks.

I am looking to do a project and thinking about buying one of middle of the road shotguns,what i would like to know what the best price range to stick with?The project gun was be end up as a sxs slug gun,so this is the reason for all the questions,so can anyone help me?

Fox...As I do not speak either of these languages,your posts in German & Spanish make as much sense to me as your English ones do
franc

Hi all, here's a pic from today, my Buhag Hubertius (DDR Gun of course) and a limit of pheasants

All the best!

Point taken, Franc. Parles vous francois? franc- monetary denomination in France of course. I do not speak French, but one of my daughters does, as she is the French language teacher in an area HS- Few if any, yourself included, ever understand my posts here- that's the beauty of it all- a touch of the EA. Poe hand perhaps. We vulpines like to remain, as old fat boy Winnie Churchill once said about Stalin's Russia.

I deleted the Spanish, as there is NO Spanish shotgun website extant- yet-- and the essense, what the Hindu might well call the RAZA, of my phrase auf Deutsch- ist: "Well, I know a little about German shotguns, but I am not an expert. I believe what you gentlemen have posted to be correct----"

You might wish to read the article on double guns for tactical usage in Oct 2011 Issue of Gun Digest page 92-96

I have a 12 ga Simson sxs, proofed 10/79, which works just fine (now that I had a hammer spring replaced). I bought it NIB in the early 80s and have hunted and shot trap with it since. It's a solid gun, durable, excellent quality. I would not be hesitant about buying another one, for the right price, if I was in the market.

I tried to buy a gun from Blackbern last spring - he had a 16ga Simson listed - and never got any response to my email or my phone call. I figured, if he didn't want to respond, he didn't need my money and I moved on.

And, as to Run's Deutsch ... ehhh. It's raw, wild, uncultured and comprehensible. Just barely....

Bare is good enough for me- made some friends in 2010 at a clays shoot- originally from Dusseldorf and we conversed in German and did just fine, thanks all the same. Of course, spoken language bears the imprint of the Country and region from whence it had its origins- Germany is composed of Landers- similar to our States here-- just as the accents you may here in English can be waaay different from Sweet Home Alabama to Thief River Falls, Minnesota- same is true regarding German-
Hautpt Deutsch- spoken by the Grafs, Vons and High Born Court attending Germans is a bit different than you would hear in Essen or in Kiel--

I also emailed Blackbern last summer to enquire about a sauer.Gave up after 4 emails and 1 call with no answers .

I apologize if you couldn�t reach me. I work during the day, which makes it difficult to get a hold of me until about 4:30. I am available most evening from 4:30 to 9:30 eastern time. I was having some troubles with my Verizon email so I switched to Gmail at the beginning of the year. My new email is 757arms@gmail.com . If you�re using any email address other than that it won�t ever get answered. I try to respond to all emails but if you're having a hard time feel free to call my cell @ 301-275-3857.

-Carl
www.757arms.com
Blackbern LLC