doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com MACHINING A SXS FOR AFTER MARKET CHOKE TUBES

Gunman,
I dunno who "they" is, but they must be right, because I'm having a hard time following you.

I think you are saying the barrel centerlines are on the same horizontal plane. I think everyone here would agree to that. I don't think "parallel" is the right word. But, English is a second language here.

I'm sure this is just a miscommunication between you and 2pipes. I think both of you full well know barrels converge on sxs and o/u guns, each for slightly different reasons.

Gunman;
First off I have never laid any claim to being an engineer, I am retired from working a number of years as a machinist, the majority of it as a modelmaker & have so stated. Previous to that I was a factory worker & farmboy. This is all I have ever claimed to be.
When you made the statement;
" When they are built the muzzel ends are brrought together to be parralel"
it was in no way stated they were parallel to any particular plane, vertical or horizontal. I have over the years worked with many things which were parallel to some given plane, but in this case the implication as written was they were parallel to one another.
I do accept your explanation. Perhaps I was a little hasty, but was simply responding to what I read, which I really believe you will have to agree that is what you actually said.
Another thing I have never professed to be is a Seer, I don't read minds, only the written or spoken word.
I have incidently heard the claim before that the bbls were pulled together for the last few inches in such a way the bores were parallel there. They were not proclaimed to be straight, which of course is where the impossibility came in. I have never seen a set of bbls put together this way either.

One of my friends had Briley put screw chokes in a very nice pre-war Sauer a couple of years ago. A couple of months ago he discovered the threads in one barrel were about an 1-1/2" longer than they needed to be. Apparently the barrel smith started thinking about sex and let the threading machine run too long.

I have an old 21 trap gun with the thin wall Brileys in it and it shoots where it is supposed to. The Brileys were in it when I bought it.

Best,

Mike

Piper and Chuck. Let us say that we are two Nations separated by a common language. It is sometimes difficult to explain in few words exactly what is meant . I have recalled mistakenly it seems that Piper had said he was engineer .
Paralleling is a term used in the British gun trade meaning the barrels are put together so that the muzzle is in the same horizontal plain as the breech. In tests we carried out some years ago using lasers mounted inside the bores of variety of barrels from Purdy's to Midland Gun none of them had over lapping patterns at 30 yards. Lining them up on a target as you would sight a rifle down the center of the rib they all centered high with the right barrel being left of center and the left barrel being right of center.
This showed that the barrels were not "regulated" as some people seem to think . Some makers of O/U clay guns have made attempts in recent years to address this problem by spacing the muzzles and using a very high rib .I'm sure you will agree that a SxS built like this would be an ugly beast looking like a clumsey double rifle. Several O/Us, B25 Miroku and a Boss, we tested at the same time all tended to center top barrel flat and on mark bottom barrel high . This was proved shooting solid slugs.

This is the basis for my maintaining that gunmakers did not "regulate" barrels as some believe, the only regulation was to shoot a set pattern at a set distance with a specified cartridge .
It came as a surprise to me as I had always understood from being an apprentice that the average 28" double SxS had overlapping patterns at 30 yards


Based on our findings I then worked out a mathematical formula , which proved our results. I hope this clarifies things .

That should have read ," none had fully over lapping patterns at 30 yards", that is they had partialy overlapping patterns.

Gunman;
The only other comment I would have here & this is likely still a matter of terminology.
As I understand the word "Regulate" as applies to either a dbl shotgun or rifle, it simply means to so align the bbls as to shoot to the desired point of impact.
I would likely have to dig through a lot of old writing, but am pretty certain that I have read references of better makers of dbl shotguns firing their guns & if the bbls did not center their charges together, they would melt the solder from the ribs etc & "Regulate" them & re-solder.
Perhaps over the years enough experience has been gained on the original setting that this is no longer felt to be a need. Judging from your list of credentials you should certainly have more knowledge of this than me.
I do know though that I am not just dreaming it up, that at least in times gone by some makers have "Regulated" the barrels of their double shotguns, or at least they stated they did.

PS; Even the initial setting of the bbls to a predetermined convergence would in my definitation of the word be considered regulation, even though it was never altered.

gunman,

You may think I am talking drivel, but what I am talking is what a SHOOTER sees, results. I have never claimed to understand gunmaking, or the mathematical formulae involved in figuring barrel convergence, but I DO know what I see when I shoot my S x
Ss at a certain distance. Tell me how the definition of shotgun barrel regulation, that I stated in my earlier post, is drivel.

Do you disagree with my postulation that regulation of the barrels of a shotgun is shooting their patterns to the same point of impact, at a specified distance?

Again, where did I claim to be a gunmaker, or have vast knowledge of gunmaking? I am a shooter, a hunter, and I have enough years at it to know what I want, and expect. Regardless of what you may believe, there ARE doubleguns out there that print BOTH barrels to the same point of impact at the same distance, a distance that is relevant to clay shooting and hunting. Those are the doubles that I want and strive for. I can make them shoot to where I am looking if the barrels are regulated to each other, and if the required adjustments are within reason. I ask no more of them, or less.

I apologize for my comment about you and your trade. You may, indeed , build very fine doubles that are regulated according to my requirements, and my misunderstanding of what you meant in earlier posts may have contributed to that. But, my post was based on my understanding of your earlier post, which, as I said, I may have misunderstood.

"What, we have, is, failure to communicate". My bad.

SRH

ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ

Stan Sorry but you are mistaken ,regulation is only concerned with the patterns I have previously stated. It is not adjusting the barrel to shoot to a point of aim ,we are taking side by side here . As previously stated some makers of Us are attempting to address this problem and because of the spacings at the muzzle 410 is more likely to shoot to point of aim than a 12 bore.

Gent harsh words have been said on both sides. It is not my intent to antagonize and I may not be the best at putting thoughts into words . Niether would I make any statement on this or any other site without some reason to back it up .

Don't know or care if they are parallel...but I do know that my vintage Scotts shoot to point of aim at 40 yards was this just by accident ?

I don't think so.