doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com SHOOTING STEEL IN A SXS

ever see a nice gun with a bulge in one or both of the barrels just in front of where the choke tapers start? this is usually a result of shooting steel shot. seems like most older guns have barrel steel that is too soft to allow for the steel shot load to pass the choke constriction. i see this mostly with guns made prior to the late 1980's, particularly those with full chokes. i have also seen a few pre ww2 made guns with scored bores. this is caused by hard steel shot coming in contact with softer steel barrels. your experience and comments?

I'll bite.

Your kidding right?

"ever see a nice gun with a bulge in one or both of the barrels just in front of where the choke tapers start? this is usually a result of shooting steel shot."

Sure have, once even bulged a chamber personally on a cheap Spanish 12-bore; when, on a dare, I plugged both barrels with 3" 2 oz lead BB magnum loads and pulled both triggers simultaneously. That was quiet a jolt, but the first examples I ever saw were vintage doubles examined long before the advent of steel shot; so swelled/bulged barrels in the forcing cone area of a vintage double gun may, or may not be the result of shooting steel shot loads. But not wishing to give up my double guns for duck shooting when the Feds mandated steel shot for waterfowl in GA, some years ago I decided to find out for myself and determine if all the terrible tales I'd read about shooting steel shot in vintage doubles had any merit; so I conducted my own non-scientific experiment. I took a 1907 vintage A Grade 12-bore Fox gun with rough bores, but nice otherwise, and had a gunsmith open the chambers to 3" and the chokes to light modified; figuring I could afford to risk a $400 gun without too much regret. I then proceeded to shoot a number of Winchester, Rem, and Federal factory 3" steel loads in #2 and #4 size shot thru the barrel tubes. There was no bulging, no ringing, no scoring of even the slightest degree noted; and the recoil of these 3" steel loads was similar to that of a one once skeet load. Frankly I was disappointed, as I had expected the absolute worst. Based on my experience my guess would be that a standard to heavy weight vintage American double gun with its typical thick barrel walls would have little susceptibility to bulging in the forcing cone area; although I would not shoot steel loads thru vintage barrel tubes with tight chokes. Personally I believe your thesis smacks more of rumor than fact; and with all due respect, why would any sane/knowledgeable individual be shooting steel loads thru a set of vintage barrels nowadays given today's other and more suitable alternatives?

A local gunshop had an AyA number 3 magnum in that had the left choke bulged said to be from firing steel through full choke. Could just as easily have been a slight obstruction that went un-noticed when the steel load was fired. I'll stick to using it only in guns designed for it though as I don't want to ruin a good gun. Lagopus.....

Pressure limits for American 2 3/4" and 3" 12ga loads are the same (11,500 psi), so pressure would not be the issue in potential damage from shooting 3" shells in a gun with original 2 3/4" chambers. Shot charge and pellet size might be an issue, although as noted above it does not pertain only to steel. Possible to bulge barrels with very heavy loads of large lead shot. The scoring of barrels from steel would have been more likely to happen back before heavier and more effective wads were used in steel shot loads.

I'll repeat a post I make ever so often - can anyone say they have actually seen a barrel bulged from shooting size #5 or smaller steel shot through a modified or more open choke? I think not. I suspect the ominous warnings presented when steel shot was mandated for waterfowl were the reselt of overly cautious legal departments of the gun manufacturers.

I've never heard of that happening. If it did, it might have been early on (although back then most steel was larger, because it was almost exclusively for waterfowl) when the wads used in steel shot loads offered less protection. However, on the Browning website, they still caution not to shoot any steel through any of their Belgian-made shotguns.

I hear all sorts of things when it comes to steel out of an old SxS. One of those things is that the steel shot will damage the softer steel in the barrels of old doubles. Then I hear that the steel shot rides in the shot cup and doesn't contact the bore. So if this is true, what damage would be caused if the chokes were opened up like other guns to allow the shot to expand? I am just curious as a lot of speculation exists when ever something is changed without really any known facts. And even of damaged barrels, how many can be positively identified that the damage was caused from the shot as opposed to other causes. As I said, I am curious. I used to work in an automotive dealership and when unleaded fuel came in the speculation was that the valves in engines would need grinding constantly. Well exactly the opposite was true. Vavle grinds are pretty much a thing of the past and the engines have less carbon build up than before. So just wondering how much of steel shot problems was "speculation"?

gunsaholic,
It's my understanding that the manufacturers changed to hardened steel valves and seats after they switched to unleaded gas. My only question is, why didn't the cheap SOBs do it sooner. I recently sold a 97 Dodge Caravan with 287,000 miles on it and it never needed a valve job. A far cry from the crap (I mean cars) Detroit used to build.
Steve

True, they may have switched to hardened valve seats and valves because it was thought they were needed with unleaded gas but the reason why the valves burnt before was because of carbon build up from the leaded gas. Used to be you took a head off and you couldn't see the valves for carbon. A piece gets stuck under the valve and the burning process begins. Today you pull a head off and you virtually see no carbon build up and that's why there are less valve grinds today, not so much because they changed the seats but because they got rid of most of the carbon. The change of seats and valves was done because it was "speculated " that it was necessary with unleaded gas but you put a piece of carbon under one of these valves as well and it will burn. But either way, the technology and material in engines today is better and that is a plus.
And yes the change should have been sooner. But this is getting way off topic from steel shot and if it affects older barrels. It is obvious today that technology and materials in guns is better today. However when blackpowder went by the wayside, everyone was told not to use the "new smokeless" powder in their black powder shotguns as they would probably blow apart. Yet thousands if not millions of people did so simply because they couldn't afford another gun. Then when modern loads came out it was said not to use these loads in early smokeless guns as it would destroy them, yet again thousands did and are still doing so. Sure there were guns that blew apart but some of these guns had probably been neglected for years and were destroyed from neglect rather than type of load used. I have seen guns only a few years old that I would be afraid to shoot. So now steel shot is the latest advancement as to why older guns should not be used but I do know many who are using their old guns with it. It may sound like I am promoting steel shot in older guns but actuallty I don't use it in any of mine. I am just trying to seperate speculation from reality. But really when you think of it, unless a gun is a valuable collector piece, does it matter if the steel scores the barrel after a period of time because what good is the gun sitting in the corner collecting dust. And if it takes some time to damage a barrel, that could mean quite a few years for the average hunting gun.