doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Steel Shot in Vintage Doubles...

Round and Round the Mulberry bush! I bet there have been more cyberwords on this subject than any other, and no conclusions are ever reached, just more opinions...

I bought a cheap Lanber 12 ga and had Pat Laib open the chokes to Skeet and I/C and use steel shot in that.
I bought some bismuth shot in No 6 size for loading 12 ga for ducks. I use my standard trap load and use my adjustable charge bar to tailor the shot quantity for nice crimps.
That's the beauty of those bars
Mike

The problem with a TOTAL lead shot ban would be for those who like to shoot targets with vintage guns. I expect we could all bite the bullet (while hoping it's not steel!) and spend the extra $ for a few boxes of hunting loads.

The CIP (which regulates gun proof, ammo etc in most of the gunmaking countries of the world except ours) does have guidelines for steel shotshells. Standard 12ga steel loads (meant to be shot in 850 bar proof guns) would be limited to nothing larger than American 4 shot. Velocity, measured at 2.5 meters from the muzzle (we measure at 3 feet), no greater than 1300 fps. Standard 20ga steel loads use shot no larger than American 7's, at just a bit slower velocity (1280 fps). There is no guidance on choke constriction for the CIP standard steel loads, probably because the pellets are small enough that even a tight choke is not really a problem. It's not all that easy to compare CIP proof to pre-SAAMI American proof on guns built before the advent of the higher pressure Super X load. But I expect a lot of earlier American guns could probably handle those standard CIP steel loads with no problems.

Agree that an American 12ga made in the 1930's would be OK, from a pressure standpoint, shooting American factory steel. In their information sheet on CIP steel loads, the British Association for Shooting and Conservation (BASC) states: "These regulations are intended to ensure the safety with steel shot of the most vulnerable guns, namely old, thin-walled, perhaps poor-condition guns." Although our guns, in general, are built stouter than theirs--certainly so if you're talking their light "game guns"--I think I'd still worry about very large steel pellets through a barrel with a very tight choke. I'd probably follow Jerry's example and use one of the other, softer nontox loads through a full choke.

Speaking for myself, ben-t, as all members do. It's true that steel keeps shooters who couldn't afford non-tox in our sport (just as many shop at Walmart to get the kids off to school while others buy at higher prices elsewhere to keep business and profit in their towns).

Aside from steel's efficacy on birds and guns, my opinion reflects my age. Cost bears little influence when faced with mortality. I chose shooting as part of a lifestyle more than 70 years ago and consider the cost of shells a gnat's eyelash of influence compared to other costs of enjoying the great outdoors.

Let's not lose sight of the fact that a wide range of opinions make this board the valuable source that it is. It's no place for absolutists of any kind. Nothing is safe and nothing certain in this world. Things change on a dime. There is no final answer in a biological system. We have only ourselves.

What can we do to stop the government(s) from taking lead away from us for clay pigeon and upland shooting? I can sort of understand the ban of lead for migratory birds but it just baffles me for any other shooting venue. I just think it is ridiculous and I for one abhor the thought of banning lead! Could the NRA help oppose any sort of ban? We need to do something before it is too late....I just don't know what.

I think most of us agree that steel is a poor substitute for lead and some of us even have suspicions as to why our governments find it so toxic that it must be banned. I wouldn't expect anyone to remember posts, that I have made much earlier, on my belief that the govts motivation is for reasons other than the protection of predatory birds or waterfowl. The subject is; can older double guns safely use steel shot to keep them in the field so that, even as apparantly abborant it is to some, for reasons I won't speculate on, people who must be more concerned about their money spent(by shopping at Walmart for their steel shotshells) can remain shooting the old shotguns they already own rather than leave the woods and fields to those aged men who have reached a level of financial wealth that has them wanting only for the respect they don't feel from those who must live a more practical life style. It is unfortunate that an age old classism exists, even today, in which the less fortunate must be continually put in place by the more fortunate, as the opportunities present themselves. "My gun is better than yours" and "people who use steel shot should find a pool hall rather than clutter the woodlands and clays games". Why we must stray from the subject of using steel shot to these petty pronouncements on who can afford nontoxics more exspensive than steel, seems to be a tangent some we must come back to over and over again. It makes me wondered how much they can really appreciate a soul renewing day in the fall woods with gun, dog and grouse, with all their worries that they may encounter someone with a Mossberg filled with steel shot?

A couple of facts that need to be considered.
Many shooting schools here in England are using steel shot through tightly choked guns (full) for instruction, because it is cheap and as not caused any problems at all, except for ricochets and rusting the lawns causing unsightly grass burns and toxic water courses.
Due to the use of nitrates on farm land we now have Ferrous Nitrate poisoning in many of our watercourses and on our grassland ( The developers at the EPIC site will love this as it is easier to get planning permission for Brownfield sites than it is for Greenfield sites).
Finally if you have eaten game shot with steel shot and digested steel pellets, should you go for an MRI scan it can be potentially lethal.
So there maybe is a God?
All the scumbags that sold me and my Lead shot down the line MAY have their come uppance.
Is Tom Roster really Judas Iscariat incarnate?

Thirty shares of U.S. Steel?

bern-t, I learned long ago to not impute motives or make assumptions about persons I don't know. You're invited to visit me here in Nova Scotia: an active man who lives in a modest camp in the woods, without a car or fashionable clothes who doesn't smoke or drink, curl, play golf, gamble or chase women because of the love of my wife. I trap to pay my taxes, have a large garden, cultivate an acre of grapes for a winery, and freelance with rural people in social and resource development. My health is my wealth. Some would speculate from that that I do not live a simple, unencumbered life and lack the respect of my community and peers---but they would be wrong. You're still welcome. Kind regards, King

I agree with King. Steel is rubbish. Browning Arms Co strongly suggests not using steel in any Superposed model. That's enough warning for me not to use it in a Browning or any other fine gun, esp a Vintage sidelock double. I, like King, will use a non-steel alternative no matter the cost if lead is outlawed....and I'm not going to feel sorry for the guy on welfare with his Mossberg pump and steel shotshells either! HaHa