doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Steel Shot in Vintage Doubles...

Guys,

The EPIC Game Fair thread has got me thinking... but I am bit confused by the whole steel shot in vintage guns conversation. I have seen high speed camera video of shotguns being fired. The wad continues to cup the shot until it all exits the muzzle, at which time they separate. So why would it matter if you fired steel shot or lead? Would the wad separate the shot from the barrel wall? It seems to me that the bore would be protected.. or is that totally wrong?

I couldn't find a high speed video to post but I did find this picture. You can clearly see that the wad and shot stay together until exiting the barrel. So please educate me!

-Adam

I may be wrong but I think the steel won't compress like lead at the choke. It forces a relatively solid mass through the choke and buldges the barrels. I would think this would be really bad in a SxS because of the effect on the rib and other barrel.

Perhaps one of our British friends can report whether steel shot target loads suitable for vintage guns are available on their side of the pond??

Its the bridging that steel shot does when it enters the choke that does the damage. In other words, the steel does not compress to fit the choke, but stays the same diameter as it was in the more open barrel and creates an air hammer effect at the choke stricture which in turn may ring-bulge the barrel at that point...Geo

P.S.: Before plastic collars were perfected for steel shot, there was also the possibility of the harder steel scoring or scarring the softer steel the barrels may have been made of.

Would be neat to see how much it's hardness contributes to the increased chamber pressures as it squeezes through the forcing cone too.

And the efficacy of the plastic collars protecting barrels against scoring depends upon the shells being properly loaded and the collar/wad working properly. The reloading manuals will go on at length on how and why to be exceedingly careful loading steel, to avoid both it getting between the wad and barrel and ahead of the wad fingers/cup.

Add to that risk (and the barrel-bulging bridging risk) the need for additional velocity to provide killing energy to the shot because the steel loses velocity and energy much more quickly than lead, and you get additional pressure which the vintage double may, or may not, be able to handle.

Responding to the post immediately upthread: The steel will hit the choke at a much higher velocity, exacerbating the bulge risk that way, too. I don't think one would be able to segregate the risks of pressure, velocity and bulging in any meaningful way other then acknowledging they are there. They seem to be the kind of risks which grow non-linearly and exacerbate each other.

Gentlemen,

Would not a thicker wad, perhaps one that has a solid shot cup rather than the cuts and petals, allow for the wad to compress through any choke and also protect the barrel against any potential scoring?

The wads that are used in factory loaded Heavy Shot look as their shot cups are almost .1" thick.

Mark

Reputable 12 ga guns in the 30s might all have been proofed at present day SAAMI max; probably some in the 20s or Winchester wouldn't have come out with it. Winchester came out with the 3 3/4 dr 12 ga. Super X load around 1925-7. Not sure about when 16 or 20 ga might have been souped up.

Just about all steel loads push the SAAMI max of 11,500 psi unless you reload. I see some 12 ga steel loads in my book as low as 7200 psi at over 1200 fps.....I see one 16 ga. 7/8 oz load at 8400 psi at 1300 fps. I think these loads would be OK if the chokes are like lite mod. or more open.

I do know a very good double man that shoots off the shelf 1300 fps steel in 1930s 12 ga doubles.

My personal decision has been NOT to shoot steel in any of my old doubles. I have a 1970's era Miroku/Daly 12ga with mod and IC chokes that I've dedicated as my 'steel shot special' and I shoot ducks and geese with steel #2s without any injury to the gun that I have noticed (knock on wood)...Geo

Thanks for the info guys! Well, how about this?

Can I put 20ga reducers in my 12ga (the chamber inserts... not the full length tubes)? Would it be okay then? It seems like the hardness of the shot doesn't affect the bore because of the wad. The biggest issue appears the be the choke. But if I am shooting a 20ga shell in a 12ga barrel, the choke shouldn't affect much, right?

Thanks

Adam