doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com U.S. clay games - Why be different than the world?

Treblig's post on trap gun records prompted a question.

Why do the U.S. clay game organizations persist on our games being different than the internationally sanctioned types?

It seems it puts us at a disadvantage in fielding international competitors.

What do you think? Opinions from members of other countries welcome as well.

Maybe same reason why US isn't metric---officially. It has all the technical skills (on the field and in the plant) but won't give up the old standard.

Maybe we aren't followers, especially in the arena of firearms? We went with the 9mm....isn't that concession enough?

Cause we're a bunch of wimps who value high scores more than anything else.

I think Joe Wood pegged it, for me at least.

I have been told that the amateur trap sport here is the largest particpative sport in the USA. A good argument against changing things.

I think that the old men/shooters wind up running the skeet, trap, and sporting clays associations have over decades skewed the rules to favor age, competitors with time and money to practice, and concentration over youth, excellent eyesight, and athletic ability. Trap used to be shot with a low gun as did skeet. Sporting clays here started out with a low gun. A young man that shoots at our local gun club has been shooting international skeet competitively. Watching him start with the gun low and then run twenty five straight is truly a good use of thirty minutes. I doubt there are very many baby boomers that could keep up with him if shooting low gun. Go to a pre-mounted gun and us old farts become more competitive.

All this is my opinion even if stated as fact.

Best,


Mike

Interesting topic & one I've heard discussed repeatedly over the years, but before going into it:

Currently our[USA] efforts are represented in the olympic competitions through USA Shooting; it gets zero government support, so any contribution or your membership is most appreciated. We have some wonderful shooters, both male & female and coaching staff. I've spent time on multiple ocassions shooting, learning and laughing w/both Haley Dunn[international skeet] and Bret Erickson [bunker]; we could not be better represented.

www.USASHOOTING.ORG

~~~~~~~~~

I'm not aware of trap[called DTL, abroad] ever being shot as a low gun game. In its early iterations it was blood sport. Bill Wise, one of our best loved former members & participants, collected memorabilia from and about 'pig' shoots & shooting, among other things. The earliest ref that he could find to it was a lithograph from the late 1700's that showed the shooter with a pre-mounted flintlock and the bird being released from under a hat. Based on that, early black & white photographs of live bird competitions and the engraved illustrations on old trap guns, I'd say it has always been so .. a mostly pre-mounted gun game or an 'Any Mount' game, if you prefer. One might look at Cyril Adam's style and advise for handling a double [Lock, Stock & Barrel by Adams & his good friend Bob Braden] for a very quick slightly off the shoulder approach & technique in the ring, but Cyril is an exception. For modern clay trap targets, I have never seen nor heard of anyone shooting them low gun in an ATA competition.

On skeet, the game devolved toward the premount due to the nature of tournaments where winners are declared by score and the game evolved into a game in and of itself and it's original purpose as a tool for keeping in tune in the off season was set aside in the quest for perfection as skeet shooting took hold as a sport itself. I know & have seen some wonderful skeet shots who drop the gun off their shoulder before calling for the bird, but they are a dying breed, being bird hunters first and foremost and skeeters second. The game has also gone from pass through shooting with open choked field guns to heavier purpose built tubed guns and sustained leads in order to shoot perfect scores over many targets.

Sporting clays has undergone something similar and so it was predicted that given time, it too would go to the pre-mounted guns and it did just that w/the 'any mount' rule. I heard that being discussed and predicted right after Bob Brister started to advocate the game as sport here. Prior to that the only courses I knew of were some 'Continental' courses otherwise known as 'quail walks'; one at the former Cota de Caza(sp?)in SoCal & one we had in Dallas, later. I'm sure there were others, but I can't speak to them. Those Continental courses were low gun walking affairs with random target releases of singles, pairs, report pairs and sometimes 3 bird flushes that made one pay attention to footing as well as proper mounting.

FITASC remains a low gun discipline within the sporting clays game as does International skeet.

I'm sure others can do a better job of fleshing this out, but think I've covered the basics. Remember that you may shoot clay targets any way you wish from a low gun or off the shoulder or pre-mounted position when you are out w/friends or just practicing proper technique for future time afield. If your goal is to win tournaments then you need to eliminate as many variables as possible and that means pre-mounting more often than not; OTOH good shooting in the field comes from a combination of technique that is inclusive of proper gun mount from somewhere originating off the shoulder.

That's my take onit anyway. Just stay safe & enjoy it, irrespective of your personal bent;-)

Watch about five minutes of rugby football and then think about what Sundance said: "They're not as tough as they look," and what Butch replied: "But neither are we." Benchrest skeet IS for guys who invest in shelves of trophies. I'm 63 (not my hgt) and I'm not certain I'd want to work with the butt on the stripe but somewhere off the shoulder or under the armpit is what gives me pleasure no matter I haven't broke 25 strait since the last time which is damn near lost in time. Like the random delay of international (particularly at 8 where I need a little challenge) also but I think I might be susceptible to starting the gun on the sound of the trap rather than the appearance of the bird. As for target speed, I've never shot international, so I can only imagine how I'd cope with that. As for the King's body parts, decimal inch is certainly an improvement on fractional and I could have lived with metrification just fine.

jack

I just thumbed through Capt. Money's book Pigeon Shooting, and found most of the shooters in position with the gun off the shoulder. Hurlingham Club Rules call for the gun off the shoulder with the butt below the arm pit. Carteret Gun Club rules #3 The shooter may hold his gun in any position he pleases. In his book Growing Up With Bootleggers Gamblers & Pigeons, Patrick M. Canfield goes on at length about "fair gun shooters" and "high gun shooters."

Interesting topic, Chuck.

I just returned this evening from a couple days at the Ga. State Sporting Championships. There was Sporting and FITASC competition there. This discussion reminded me of the error in thinking of many who decry pre-mounting in sporting clay competition. I have heard it put forth that those top shooters in the Sporting game would be out of luck if they had to shoot low-gun. That is nonsense. If the NSCA rules were changed to disallow premounting the scores may dip, but most of the top shooters now would be top Sporting shooters low gun. Why do I think this? Because the very same shooters at the top of the Sporting score sheets are also at the top of the FITASC score sheets.

It is only natural for the really competitive shooter to strive for perfection in scores. In Sporting this is very, very rare. There are almost NO perfect scores shot, except for charity events where the targets are set soft. It is easier to get to a high level of competency in Sporting by learning to shoot premount early on. Consistency in the mount is eliminated. Anybody can mount consistently if they take their time and check everything, then lift the head off the stock and call for the bird. There is a real reason that pigeon shooters shoot premounted. It is faster and more consistent. Argue that all you want to, but the facts speak for themselves. Why do so many S x S "proponents" hate premounting so bad? I can't answer that for others, but I have my ideas about it.

I won't be a part of the crowd that decries the premount in Sporting. I shoot premounted because I enjoy it. Premounting was already in place when I began competing in earnest. Would I be upset if NSCA eliminated premounting? No. It would probably be to my advantage competing, because I hunt birds so much. I also am not one of those competitors who complains about targets at a shoot. As long as we all shoot the same course(s) I could care less. The variety helps keep it interesting for me. Those who fuss about target setting are the same ones that would raise a hue and cry if they had to go back to low gun.

It is a shame when those who do not like a particular aspect of a clays game defame those who do enjoy it the way it is. I am not directing these comments toward anyone here in particular, and as tw pointed out previously, you can shoot any of these games any way you choose. Just don't expect to go to the top if you refuse to avail yourself of the best tools available to do so. Trying to shoot the very best scores possible is not important to most, but to some of us it is. It is just the competitive nature that some have.

JMHO, SRH