doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion Classic & Custom Single Barreled Sporting Rifles @ doublegunshop.com Selling custom rifles

Steve,

You are correct about the return of the gun. I have an FFL and all the goodies for CA law. I thought the law was vague. I recently had a federal audit. I had a real good guy so we discussed many thinks I was unsure of. I suggested that the gun is still the original owners gun until the inspection period is over. He told me that he understood my argument, but that is not what the law says. The gun must be shipped (returned) to an FFL.

We also discussed consignment guns and a consignment gun if not sold , by law, needs to be processed like a sale back to the original owner. Not a big deal in other states, but here in CA it means $25 and a 10 day wait. If the owner cannot clear, then the gun cannot be return and it become a $ mess.

Jerry

Not so sure about that. I know that a 50 year old Mauser,in it's original configuration is C&R eligible.

However, if you take the action from that 50 year old Mauser and have a custom gun built it's no longer C&R eligible, unless it was made into a custom more than 50 years ago.

From the ATF Website...

"Firearms automatically attain C&R status when they are 50 years old. Any firearm that is at least 50 years old, and in its original configuration, would qualify as a C&R firearm."

There has been some talk that may been changed in the future.

I imagine the same applies for an antique such as the OP's gun, chambered for a centerfire cartridge, or a custom Winchester Highwall, originally made before 1898 but recently made into a custom, centerfire.

If I buy a newly made Shiloh Sharps in 45-70 it has to go to an FFL, not to me.

I am not qualified to give a definite legal opinion, but I am pretty sure that the ATF rules for modified C&R guns and modified antique firearms are very different.

It is my understanding that as long as the action body was manufacutured prior to 1899, a firearm is legally an antique according to ATF rules, regardless of any changes made. Everything except the action body itself can be replaced or changed in any way and the firearm is still legally an antique according to the ATF.

Requiring shipment to a FFL for a rifle that is legally an antique according to the ATF can significantly reduce its sales appeal and market value.

My preference would be to not involve any third parties at all. To sell the rifle in my home state face to face, with inspection, payment and a handshake. I tried to do that with the Cabela's consignment, where by the way they made me do the federal form just to get my own rifle back out of their inventory. That didn't sell the rifle, so I have been forced to look at the wider internet market.

I addition to the federal rules there are a bewildering variety of state and local laws and definitions of "firearm". There are also issues with shippers who will only ship guns to manufacturers or FFL holders. While I sympathize with the political viewpoints being expressed, as someone just trying to sell a rifle without violating any of those laws or rules, requiring shipment to an FFL is the only practical solution. I am not interested in years of litigation over something that can be cured so easily.

I already told one potential buyer that I would reimburse whatever fee his local dealer charged, it is $25 in my area. He went away, which suggested to me that he either would not participate in or could not pass the background check. Not my problem! The FFL requirement stays.

Rob,
You are correct about the C 7 R, except there is a mis-conception that a c & r is exempt, that is incorrect, it can only be shipped to a FFL or a C & R FFL.

The antique can be shipped w/o and FFL, I did not ask the auditor if the gun hand been altered, is it still and antique?

A good question. I think I will call the guy who audited me and find out.

Jerry

Yes Jerry, C&R eligible guns may only be shipped to an FFL or a C&R holder, they are not exempt from any federal laws pertaining to shipping to unlicensed individuals.

I'm interested in hearing what he says about altered antiques, so please let us know what he says.


thanks,

Rob

An antique is not a firearm UNLESS it fires or has been altered to fire any cartridge available in the ordinary commercial channels of trade. The ATF doesn't normally enforce this reg, but it's there.

IOW any 45-70 or 44-40 or 30-40 cannot qualify as a non-firearm antique, no matter WHEN it was made originally. This was a convenient loophole that allowed folks some freedom, until the DC weenies plugged it. But, like I said, they don't normally enforce it.....unless they see an opportunity.....
Regards, Joe

I read the regulation a bit differently - that portion of the definition applies only to replicas.

Antique firearm. (a) Any firearm (including any firearm with a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system) manufactured in or before 1898; and (b) any replica of any firearm described in paragraph (a) of this definition if such replica (1) is not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition, or (2) uses rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition which is no longer manufactured in the United States and which is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade.

I don't have my latest copy of the regs handy, they change every year, but as I remember things they've changed the wording to include originals chambered for available cartridges. However, like Lacey J (one of the Dalton girls) says in the song, "I've been wrong before!" (grin)

A colleague asked me a question about making a replica and this was my response:

"The ATF says that you can make an action (or a rifle, for that matter) for yourself, without becoming a 'manufacturer', but you're not allowed to make it for sale to anyone else.

"The fact that it was made recently means that it will always be considered a modern gun no matter what the chambering or what the action resembles. Too bad, but that's the way it is.

"I, personally, am amazed that the ATF is continuing to allow old guns chambered for still-available cartridges to qualify as antiques. Guess there are too many old trapdoors and Krags still kicking around. Usually the bureaucrats can't WAIT to cause us more hate & discontent (grin)."


I believe that the various replicas chambered for such cartridges as the 44 S&W Russian and American, the 45 Schofield, the 38 Long Colt and the 40-65 all require an FFL to purchase. At least that's the way it seems to me and the dealers I know. However if I'm wrong then that would explain the ATF's lack of enforcement, perhaps they changed the wording of the reg back to the original wording that excluded ALL pre-99 guns from the definition. Hope so, that's the way the original GCA '68 was worded. There were no exceptions to the pre-99 definition in the original act as passed by Congress but the 'administrators' change things to suit themselves sometimes.
Regards, Joe

The 'Antique' status thing I'd like to get a clear ruling on too.
I have seen pre-1899 dated Russian Mosin Nagant recievers on Finnish M39 rifles sold as antique by some dealers. Though they have Finnish build dates in the '40s.
Other dealers stick to the 'original configuration/unaltered' rule.

Wasn't there some confusion/disagreement over importation of Mauser sporting rifles recently? Seems like the receiver ser# put them in the antique status, but they didn't start out as 'Sporters',,so the question was wether they were still Antiques got batted around. Never heard of an outcome.

Some states don't follow the Fed Antique Status at all. NJ on long-guns & handguns.
NY on cartridge handguns (with a small loophole for those chambered for a cartridge not readily available in normal trade channels).

I've never sold a replica firearm (cartridge) w/o a 4473 regardless of it's chambering. That 'chambered for a cartridge not readily available in normal trade channels' rule is much too vague for me.
UPS goes everywhere.