It certainly looks like after 123 viewings and only two replies that there are not many Hatfield/Kimbers out there for people to comment on as Jim implied.

Thanks for your comments on your ownership of two of them, dbadcraig. IT looks like both appear to be nice guns, and I would be happy with the wood on either.

You make a very good point that success is measured in commercial terms, and if an endeavor is not commercially successfull is doesn't always mean that the product was bad, as there are too many factors involved in commercial success. Sometimes it's similar to artists, one only appreciates the product and quality only after the artist, or company, is long gone, and the product no longer available.

It has been hard for me to differentiate comments re Turkish guns between strickly design/quality issues and political issues.

It's hard to start producing anything new and not get slammed by customers on ititial startup production problems and issues, look at the RBL customers. Not that the company couldn't have done better in communications. But a customer never wants to hear the truth about shipping delays in any industry, so they fell into the same trap every manufacturer and customer sets up, they tell the customer what they want to hear and the customer believes what he wants to hear. But that's a little off topic.

I think it appears that while Turkish output was problematic that a lot of effort is now being expanded here by a lot of companies and quality should be on the upswing. The problem I see is the political implications when it comes to Turkish manufacture of guns.

Americans seem to always want high quality at a cheap price and will spend $30 in gas on a Saturday driving around to save $15 on something they need. So manufacturers attempt to give them what they need, but with a high labor intensive product like a sxs they go outsourcing and Turkey seems to be the in-place for cheap labor today along with some history of gun making ability.

But since American companies are quick to ship American labor jobs overseas to improve shareholder profit and executive compensation, and our current federal administration does everything to encourage them to do so, an American gun buyer has a bad taste in his mouth when his American gun manufacturer doesn't make anything here any more (meaning his neighbor no longer has a job), and the only thing reminiescent of the American founded manufacturer is the name on the gun applied overseas. Add to that what we see happening to Americans in that part of the world, and the anti-nationality feelings are bound to come up. Guess we all need to remember that the average worker there in Turkey is just happy to have a job, just like an American is today, so we should not lump the worker there into the same category as we might sometimes lump the American manufacturer, the USA government, or the Turkish goverment or company.

I wanted to try a 28 gauge sxs because of the small frame/lightness (I'm older now so lightness matters) and the seeming praise that the 28ga is now getting. I wanted new and not to spend a lot as a first start in this area, and happened to stop in a couple of days ago to my local Gander Mountain store. I have read in these forums that CZ/Arsmco/Huglu are iffy, but Gander had an unadvertized special on new Armsco branded sxs's, $459 for Bobwhites and $539 for Ringnecks, a great price judging by what I have seen on the net (even I am not immune to finding it cheap). No 28ga in Bobwhits which I would have preferred, but three in Ringneck. So I picked through the Ringneck's surface quality variance, stock figure, metal to wood fit, flush screws, metal finish, etc. and got what I felt was the best compromise. Will find out about function when spring comes, but at $500 for a new 28ga sxs with a gauge appropriate frame, I felt that I couldn't go that wrong.

But I would like to have a new made London look true sidelock, and here there are several choices in the $2500-3000 category if you search the net and find a sale one or leftover. I know that I can get a better gun at the $5000 level but not quite ready for that level yet.

Hence my question re Hatfield/Kimber, as the ads/writeups imply that they are very well made for the money. Anybody out there besides dbadcraig with personal experience? Anybody know if there are any differences between the "failed" Hatfield and the "new" Kimber?

dbadcraig, thanks for the site link on the Hatfield article, makes some sense now history wise.

Dave