doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Crescent Fake Damascus?

The same metal finish is on both the barrels and the hinge pin area. Just heavy wear with what looks like surface pitting.

Jim,

I've seen the word damascene used to describe printed damascus patterns somewhere, I think in the old Sears catalogs.

DLH

Faux Damascus infro http://docs.google.com/Doc?id=dfg2hmx7_302dwsjk9cs

Damascene simply means surface etching or engraving to give a pleasing pattern. The term causes a lot of confusion when researching damascus tubes as some museum curators insist on using it. Watered iron, water patterned, water etched also get used at times interchangeably. There were guns, usually Turkish in origin, that had damascene barrels.

Also, there were several patents filed whose intention was to create a damascene barrel, like this one by Sachs.



Pete

Steel/Damascus/Imitation Damascus:

Old post I know but I thought I might be able to add something to it.

I have a reproduction 1892 catalog from Schoverling, Daly & Gales (a major NY Wholesaler) and a 1895 Montgomery Ward & Co. catalog. They both sold shotguns with Steel, Imitation Damascus and Damascus Barrels. There was no fakery involved, it was clearly stated. I don�t think either could afford to ruin their reputations.

Steel Barrels were only used for the least expensive guns. I expect the Steel was at least as strong as Damascus; it was just less expensive to produce with modern machine methods than was hand forged Damascus. Steels were fairly modern at that time (Marlin and Winchester were switching to Nickel Steel for their new high pressure necked down rifle cartridges). Fifty years before that, Steel was of questionable quality and I expect Damascus was superior.

There was a small extra charge for Imitation Damascus. I believe it was made by a printing process, which may have been more expensive than bluing, possibly done with chemicals similar to Cold Bluing. It seems that some people were willing to pay a extra for the beauty of the Damascus look. They must have been willing to pay for engraving and Fine Damascus; high end guns were about 10x the costs of every day shooters!

The various versions of true Damascus were all more expensive; generally Twist, Laminate, Damascus and �Fine� Damascus (or any of the fancy pattern names used) in increasing order.

Montgomery Ward had comments for Imitation Damascus such as:
�steel barrels, a good imitation twist finish, giving them the appearance of genuine twist barrels. The Browning will wear as long as on a genuine twist barrel, and they are just as good shooters, and sold by many as genuine laminate barrels.�
and comments for Damascus such as:
�bored for Nitro or Black Powders (will shoot either kind)�.

I take the second comment as a good recommendation for Damascus since �Nitro� (smokeless) powders had been used for some time by 1895. Contrary to common wisdom, I actually prefer modern shells in my Damascus guns. The lower weight of the modern powders reduces recoil momentum significantly and it is the momentum forces that break stocks and loosen actions. From any information I can find the shell manufactures were careful to keep the Nitro shells to the same pressures as the Blackpowder versions. They didn�t want to blow up older guns still in use, and higher velocities were of little use with shot. (Rifle Cartridges were different, when pressures were pushed for high velocity/necked loads they designed new cartridges that wouldn�t fit in older guns and designed the new guns to handle them.)

I bought an old 12 Ga Belgium Hammer double a while back. I tried to renew the Damascus finish that could be seen under the forearm. It took several tries before I realized that �Fine Damascus Finish� meant that it was an imitation finish on steel. The Proof Marks (Diamond with a 12/C in it) dates the gun from 1898-1924; I assume early in this range. They look to be machined barrels and seem to be a hard steel but I�d still prefer Damascus.

Lots of info in the old catalogs. The 3 1/4" chambers on the gun puzzled me until I found that 12 Ga shells of that length were sold for reloading in 1892. They could be original chambers! I wouldn�t want to try 3 1/4" Turkey Loads; not sure my shoulder or the gun could take it. Winchester �Minimum� loads work for me.

Does anyone here own a SxS with "fake Damascus" barrels?

I have never (knowingly) seen such a shotgun.

Jerry

Jerry I have seen one. The pattern went from the barrels over the rib in one continuous pattern.

I owned one for awhile, unfortunately washed the pattern off during a clean-up. It was just sort of painted on, did not look quite right and everything felt and looked backwards, as in the iron was "higher" than the steel. It's been awhile but I believe that's how it went - a friend wanted an SxS hammer gun so I gave it to him / his grandson. --- John Can.

"Belgian-Damascus Finish" Manhattan Arms Co., Schoverling, Daly & Gales import courtesy of Brad Bachelder

Here is from H & D Folsom Arms Co.'s Catalogue No. 23, about 1926 or 27.



I don't have any H & D Folsom Arms Co. paper from after WW-I that shows them offering their American Gun Co. or Crescent Fire Arms Co. guns, made at their factory in Norwich, Conn. as being offered with anything but steel barrels.