doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion Classic & Custom Single Barreled Sporting Rifles @ doublegunshop.com A Unique Low-Wall

Gentlemen, before you think about American engravers, may I draw your attention to the fact the top of the barrel is marked with the pre-WW1 Sauer &Sohn Berlin,Germany retail shop adress. The "symbols at the top of the receiver", eagle and Crown/B are German proofmarks, so the rifle was assembled by Sauer &Sohn in Suhl, proofed there and probably engraved there too. The serial number 104664 most likely is the S&S number. Jim Cate in his book "J.P.Sauer&Sohn, Suhl" lists S&S serial number 104666. This is a .25-20 single shot built on a Winchester low-wall action too! So apparently Sauer about 1905-10 imported several Winchester actions to build German-style small-game rifles on.

Hmmm... you gentlemen certainly know a lot more about this stuff than I do, and you certainly are more opinionated. Perhaps this has to do with the fact you have had much more familiarity with these guns than I, you've held many more in your hands and probably owned some.

Having said that, as a relative newcomer to "Classic & Custom Single Barreled Sporting Rifles" I would be more than happy to own this gun and shoot it. Germanic engraving doesn't bother me in the least, it's just another style I appreciate.

As to Don's comment "German style engraving on an American gun is always out of place" Don, I have to ask whether you feel the same about American engraving on a German gun, i.e. engraved G&H Mausers, etc?



Rob

BTW, the 1908 AKAH wholesale catalog shows a German, likely Zella-Mehlis made copy of the Winchester low-wall action:

IMO the marks are proof marks.

Setting aside the question of personal taste and preference in the actual choice of design, I stand by my assessment of the mediocre quality of the engraving itself. The overall design and layout are indeed good but IMO the actual cutting strokes are merely mediocre for the most part and in some places they're downright childish.

I WILL admit that most older Germanic engraving is somewhat crudely executed and so a somewhat mediocre level of expertise has become our expectation in the area of the Germanic style. I'm reminded of some of the absolutely pitiful examples seen on some drillings from the Suhl area; many are exquisitely done but others are only 'guild' quality. Kinda like a lot of the cheaper Spanish shotguns.

Re the use of modern mechanical gravers and magnifiers, I cite the work of Lynton McKenzie and Ken Hurst to name only 2. Yes they use(d) magnifiers but both use(d) only hammer-&-chisel and hand gravers for all work except background matting.

I submit to you that all, repeat ALL, really good engravers will eventually reach the point in their careers when magnification becomes mandatory. So what? I bet the 'Old Masters' used magnifiers too.....

Anyway I like most of the rifle but would change the forearm treatment and the engraving. IMO there's no excuse for such ragged strokes and poor anatomy on a rifle with such a high asking price. JMO.
Regards, Joe

My comments concerning the engraving are made to the quality of the workmanship, the cutting. The layout and artistic expression are fine. Often, in engraving factory settings, the designs were of the master engraver and the cutting done by guild workers, journeyman and apprentices. The cuts are ragged and unclean. The depth of the cuts varies greatly and is most evident when comparing the receiver sides.
The engraving is not the work of a single master such as RK or for that matter any of the other very fine masters mentioned above.

One comment about tools used...it matters not because art is in the artist. Michelangelo would have thrown away all of his hammers and chisels for just one air hammer. Or modern 3M abrasives!

As I already wrote above, you should not regard this rifle as an American gun. IMHO it is no more an American gun than a Griffin & Howe on a Mauser action is a German gun. The barrel, stock and engraving were certainly done at the Sauer&Sohn factory in Suhl, Germany, hence the Germanic appearance of the whole rifle. LRF is right: German factory engraving usually is done by several men, f.i. a master doing the overall design, another the animals, a third the scrollwork and a fourth the background stippling. The pistolgrip-cap may be a later addition and may have been done by entirely other engravers.

LRF's point is well taken, the smoothness, expertise and artistry of the cutting strokes will determine the quality or lack. When a lion is confused with some sort of mythical creature, then IMO the aesthetic value of the engraving becomes null & void regardless of the high quality of the style and layout.

Also FWIW, in my experience ~99% of all firearms engraving examples that I've seen have been copies of designs from other milieus. It's surprising sometimes when I actually come across the original source of some engraver's latest creation, but it DOES happen. There are entire chapters of engravng books devoted to the techniques of copying or 'lifting' designs to be replicated, the practice is univerally accepted.

Dictionaries and encyclopedias often have attractive line drawings of animals & figures, while other commercial art sources are advertisements and posters. Frequently copies or 'lifts' of artwork in different materials from different sources are used by the engravers to create a design that appears original but is actually a combination of 'standard' components that have become more-or-less commonly used.

Examples are the various border treatments such as thick-&-thin, muleshoe, oak leaf, etc; other anatomical examples are quite common on the Euro 'guild' guns, some of their 'ducks' look like cartoon clones of each other and many of the jumping rabbit scenes are equally identical and somewhat cartoonish. And therefore very b-o-r-i-n-g.
Regards, Joe

The late Dr. Harris's book on engraving has many examples of pre-1900 American engraving by Young,Nimschke,and the Ulrichs that are greatly magnified. I am surprised at how "crude" some of the masters' work looks like at that level of enhancement.

Not qualified to jump into the aesthetic part of this discussion ("When did that ever stop you before, Mike?," you may ask...). But I offer for your consideration a very similar lowall on the cover of "Rifle" #34, which the caption states was "barreled, stocked and engraved by J.P. Sauer and Sons in Germany in the mid-1920s". Also states that it is in .25-21 caliber. Can't see the whole stock and forend to see just HOW similar it is, but the same forend retention system is used, even if it is a half stock. Engraving style and rear sight also look very similar.

If that caliber wasn't a misprint for .25-20, wouldn't that argue that the "Rifle" cover gun was made for an American? At least, I never heard of the .25-21 being an item on the Continent.

Sorry I can't post the "Rifle" cover pic; perhaps somebody computer literate also has it (#34 is July-August 1974).

There are many things I think are wrong with this rifle. Almost all of them are matters of personal taste. But I wonder what this rifle was made to do and why it was done like it was. The oddest part to me is the full length stock. Something like that must have some functionality I cannot guess.

The bottom sling swivel is too high, the front swivel is too something. How fast will that chew threw a sling I wonder - since we are on that topic locally.

The rifle seems to lack a set trigger as well - odd for such an extensively customized rifle.

But all of that is just my opinion. And I say that as a highwall is due to arrive any moment with the first engraving I have ever had done on a rifle of my design. And I think it will be safe to say that many will not care for it much. But I know I will and I suspect that the original owner of that low wall liked his quite a lot. I just wish I had been there at the right moment to talk some sense into him and figure how what the heck he had in mind to do with it.

Rifles like this one fall into that class of Russian or India royalty rifles that seem to be all about gaudiness for gaudiness's sake along. But then, I wasn't there.

Meanwhile I am still waiting to warm up to a Krag of any flavor.

Brent