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Low-Wall

Great engraving, beautiful walnut it's just the length of the forearm that seems out of place, to me anyway. If it were mine I'd have it cut down. All right, I am a Philistine, but I know what I like. lol.

Harry

Beautiful done, but grotesque, engraving. German style engraving on an American gun is always out of place, IMO.
I do like the full length forearm even though it is not traditional. I admit that I'm a sucker for a Mannlicher stock.
What are the markings on top of the barrel?

IMHO, overall a nice gun at a distance.
I hope they are stating that they think Rudolph Kornbrath only did the grip cap. Study the cutting of the engraving on the receiver sides. The lion, on top, is nice; however the execution is not that clean.

What LRF said, definitely only 'guild' quality engraving. Stockwork, however, IMO is superb.
Regards, Joe

Thanks Joe, I tried hard to come up with the right verbage, but your "guild" hits the mark in the x ring. I would go as far to say that 2 different engravers did the left and right receiver sides.
Remove all the engraving and the gun would improve in looks.

Well..............since the forum lends itself to discussion, I'm going to respectfully disagree with previous assessments of this engraving.

First, there's some confusion in the Hallowell description of "mythical creatures". There aren't any. There's an eagle, a wolf's head, and a lion's head. The lion's head having some humanistic character....especially the nose. In Hallowell's listing on GunsInternational they further describe the grip cap as being "in the manner of Rudolph Kornbrath". I guess I don't have much problem believing all of this this to be Kornbrath's work. In E.C. Prudomme's book there is a Ballard action in the Kornbrath section that is similar full-coverage engraving.........different animals and different scroll.........but layout and use of space are very much the same.

When I look at the side panels of the low wall......there is a plain double border that frames the panel. There are four different "scroll" elements that tie this space together. Starting at the front there is the eagle in scroll fashion....two scroll elements that transition to the smaller wolf's head scroll element......the branch with berries in the eagle's claw and the eagle's tail feathers. The narrow end of the panel is terminated with a leaf scroll. A pinwheel rosette fills the area of the panel projection below the eagle's head. This is superb layout and executed well, regardless whether the subjects of the engraving satisfy a personal taste. Also the beaded background is excellent. The feathers on the eagle are great, the skulls on both eagle and wolf have a nice relief effect. This is the work of a really good engraver, and certainly has elements of Kornbrath's work.

When I inspect my own rifle with Kornbrath engraving, I'm amazed at how the work looks when held at arm's length.......where the effect of the engraving is designed to be viewed.........and how it looks under a magnifying lens (or closeup photography). What looks symetrical and balanced when viewed at normal distance.....isn't when closely inspected. This work was done with a graver and chaser's hammer. It wasn't accomplished with a hand-held pneaumatic tool under a microscope. We sometimes lose perspective when we view current work done by a Roger Kehr or Eric Gold. Naming only those two because their work is freely shown on formus like this one for our viewing pleasure.

I've no more opinion whether this is Kornbrath engraving than the seller, but I certainly believe it's in keeping with the type of work he did..........and the era he worked in.

I like it.

That is a rifle that, no matter how well its construction is executed, it is just plain impossible for me to warm up to. I find it hard to believe that it will sell for that price, but I suppose there is someone for everything.

I think this is an awfully good point.

On this forum there is a good collection of single-shot, low wall aficionados. This treatment of that style is definitely unconventional.

I feel much the same way about 1903 Springfield customs that remove or change the cutoff/bolt release.......or swap out the original bottom metal. Can't warm up to them regardless of the quality of work.

If you scroll down to picture 5 and then slide the scroll bar all the way to the right, there is the letter B and a couple of other symbols stamped at the top of the reciever. Do any of them indicate who the engraver might have been? Bob

Gentlemen, before you think about American engravers, may I draw your attention to the fact the top of the barrel is marked with the pre-WW1 Sauer &Sohn Berlin,Germany retail shop adress. The "symbols at the top of the receiver", eagle and Crown/B are German proofmarks, so the rifle was assembled by Sauer &Sohn in Suhl, proofed there and probably engraved there too. The serial number 104664 most likely is the S&S number. Jim Cate in his book "J.P.Sauer&Sohn, Suhl" lists S&S serial number 104666. This is a .25-20 single shot built on a Winchester low-wall action too! So apparently Sauer about 1905-10 imported several Winchester actions to build German-style small-game rifles on.

Hmmm... you gentlemen certainly know a lot more about this stuff than I do, and you certainly are more opinionated. Perhaps this has to do with the fact you have had much more familiarity with these guns than I, you've held many more in your hands and probably owned some.

Having said that, as a relative newcomer to "Classic & Custom Single Barreled Sporting Rifles" I would be more than happy to own this gun and shoot it. Germanic engraving doesn't bother me in the least, it's just another style I appreciate.

As to Don's comment "German style engraving on an American gun is always out of place" Don, I have to ask whether you feel the same about American engraving on a German gun, i.e. engraved G&H Mausers, etc?



Rob

BTW, the 1908 AKAH wholesale catalog shows a German, likely Zella-Mehlis made copy of the Winchester low-wall action:

IMO the marks are proof marks.

Setting aside the question of personal taste and preference in the actual choice of design, I stand by my assessment of the mediocre quality of the engraving itself. The overall design and layout are indeed good but IMO the actual cutting strokes are merely mediocre for the most part and in some places they're downright childish.

I WILL admit that most older Germanic engraving is somewhat crudely executed and so a somewhat mediocre level of expertise has become our expectation in the area of the Germanic style. I'm reminded of some of the absolutely pitiful examples seen on some drillings from the Suhl area; many are exquisitely done but others are only 'guild' quality. Kinda like a lot of the cheaper Spanish shotguns.

Re the use of modern mechanical gravers and magnifiers, I cite the work of Lynton McKenzie and Ken Hurst to name only 2. Yes they use(d) magnifiers but both use(d) only hammer-&-chisel and hand gravers for all work except background matting.

I submit to you that all, repeat ALL, really good engravers will eventually reach the point in their careers when magnification becomes mandatory. So what? I bet the 'Old Masters' used magnifiers too.....

Anyway I like most of the rifle but would change the forearm treatment and the engraving. IMO there's no excuse for such ragged strokes and poor anatomy on a rifle with such a high asking price. JMO.
Regards, Joe

My comments concerning the engraving are made to the quality of the workmanship, the cutting. The layout and artistic expression are fine. Often, in engraving factory settings, the designs were of the master engraver and the cutting done by guild workers, journeyman and apprentices. The cuts are ragged and unclean. The depth of the cuts varies greatly and is most evident when comparing the receiver sides.
The engraving is not the work of a single master such as RK or for that matter any of the other very fine masters mentioned above.

One comment about tools used...it matters not because art is in the artist. Michelangelo would have thrown away all of his hammers and chisels for just one air hammer. Or modern 3M abrasives!

As I already wrote above, you should not regard this rifle as an American gun. IMHO it is no more an American gun than a Griffin & Howe on a Mauser action is a German gun. The barrel, stock and engraving were certainly done at the Sauer&Sohn factory in Suhl, Germany, hence the Germanic appearance of the whole rifle. LRF is right: German factory engraving usually is done by several men, f.i. a master doing the overall design, another the animals, a third the scrollwork and a fourth the background stippling. The pistolgrip-cap may be a later addition and may have been done by entirely other engravers.

LRF's point is well taken, the smoothness, expertise and artistry of the cutting strokes will determine the quality or lack. When a lion is confused with some sort of mythical creature, then IMO the aesthetic value of the engraving becomes null & void regardless of the high quality of the style and layout.

Also FWIW, in my experience ~99% of all firearms engraving examples that I've seen have been copies of designs from other milieus. It's surprising sometimes when I actually come across the original source of some engraver's latest creation, but it DOES happen. There are entire chapters of engravng books devoted to the techniques of copying or 'lifting' designs to be replicated, the practice is univerally accepted.

Dictionaries and encyclopedias often have attractive line drawings of animals & figures, while other commercial art sources are advertisements and posters. Frequently copies or 'lifts' of artwork in different materials from different sources are used by the engravers to create a design that appears original but is actually a combination of 'standard' components that have become more-or-less commonly used.

Examples are the various border treatments such as thick-&-thin, muleshoe, oak leaf, etc; other anatomical examples are quite common on the Euro 'guild' guns, some of their 'ducks' look like cartoon clones of each other and many of the jumping rabbit scenes are equally identical and somewhat cartoonish. And therefore very b-o-r-i-n-g.
Regards, Joe

The late Dr. Harris's book on engraving has many examples of pre-1900 American engraving by Young,Nimschke,and the Ulrichs that are greatly magnified. I am surprised at how "crude" some of the masters' work looks like at that level of enhancement.

Not qualified to jump into the aesthetic part of this discussion ("When did that ever stop you before, Mike?," you may ask...). But I offer for your consideration a very similar lowall on the cover of "Rifle" #34, which the caption states was "barreled, stocked and engraved by J.P. Sauer and Sons in Germany in the mid-1920s". Also states that it is in .25-21 caliber. Can't see the whole stock and forend to see just HOW similar it is, but the same forend retention system is used, even if it is a half stock. Engraving style and rear sight also look very similar.

If that caliber wasn't a misprint for .25-20, wouldn't that argue that the "Rifle" cover gun was made for an American? At least, I never heard of the .25-21 being an item on the Continent.

Sorry I can't post the "Rifle" cover pic; perhaps somebody computer literate also has it (#34 is July-August 1974).

There are many things I think are wrong with this rifle. Almost all of them are matters of personal taste. But I wonder what this rifle was made to do and why it was done like it was. The oddest part to me is the full length stock. Something like that must have some functionality I cannot guess.

The bottom sling swivel is too high, the front swivel is too something. How fast will that chew threw a sling I wonder - since we are on that topic locally.

The rifle seems to lack a set trigger as well - odd for such an extensively customized rifle.

But all of that is just my opinion. And I say that as a highwall is due to arrive any moment with the first engraving I have ever had done on a rifle of my design. And I think it will be safe to say that many will not care for it much. But I know I will and I suspect that the original owner of that low wall liked his quite a lot. I just wish I had been there at the right moment to talk some sense into him and figure how what the heck he had in mind to do with it.

Rifles like this one fall into that class of Russian or India royalty rifles that seem to be all about gaudiness for gaudiness's sake along. But then, I wasn't there.

Meanwhile I am still waiting to warm up to a Krag of any flavor.

Brent

The obsolete Winchester .25-20 single shot cartridge (not the still available repeater version) was not unknown in pre-WW1 Germany, where it was called 6.5x41R. It was far more popular in Austria though, where the Georg Roth ammo factory offered it.

Very different, but I like it. Grand View, I enjoyed your take on engraving..

As has been pointed out,,take any of the old 'Masters' works and enlarge a picture of their work to this point and it reveals the jagged cuts and other horrors too.
They didn't work under sterio microscopes and other high magnification as is so common now.
No air assisted 'gravers to produce smooth cuts w/no facet chatter marks.
Magnification was always common, though some engravers did not want to outwardly admit to using any.

The style cut on the Winchester uses semi relief and modeling to produce an effect more than relying on line and/or dot shading that is most commonly seen now.
Punches of various shapes are used to push the metal into shallow relief shapes to produce shadow and light.
A followup would be to carefully polish out the shapes of the punch marks to produce a smoother finish on the vines, leaves, animal features, etc. But that wasn't done here.

Background is matted with small punches that punch a larger surface than a single dot. They are made to push down and matt at the same time a larger area. That background was probably removed in a random pattern with a single point tool. It's fast and convenient to get into the corners. In punching it down, it's leveled and matted at the same time. The punches are very tiny but work goes fast,,much faster than with a single point.

Some other styles of work are left with the randon single point background removed. Some is done with a single point cut in a parallel manner. You'll see that on Parkers and some Fox patterns.

Is it a one of a kind master piece? No I don't think so. But it's a nice looking job overall. The price?? That's up to the seller and buyer.

Other than the forend style, I like the rifle.

Here's the other low wall, with the same fine stockwork but a completely different engraving treatment.

The image is poor but it's easy to see that the effect is stunningly different. The anatomy, again, perhaps isn't the best but IMO it's A LOT better-looking than the Hallowell one.

Regards, Joe

The difference is the anatomy elements in the Hallowell rifle weren't designed to be "lifelike". They were designed intentionally to be elements of a scroll.

The appreciation of this effect is certainly subjective, but it does require talent......and it's not as if correct anatomical recreation was attempted and not achieved.

Many, perhaps most Germanic engravers seemed to draw their inspiration for animals and birds as much from heraldic bestiaries as from nature in the period we are discussing. The blending of fluid forms like scrolls into representations of animals that Grandview's sketch shows is very ancient; what we see here is the naturalistic ("lifelike") end of a spectrum whose other end is the Celtic and Scythian "foliate beasts". I agree that these artists weren't trying for anatomical accuracy; they had a different style in mind.

That said, some of the low-end German engraving of the '20s is really comic. I have a very useful BSW 12 guage SxS decorated on the bottom of the receiver with a duck worthy of Disney, not I think, an effect the Nazis intended. "Engraver sabotage" or just plain incompetence?

Well, having spent part of Sunday looking at British engraving patterns that included birds whose anatomy is best described as "turnip-like", I'm not sure I'd be too hard on the Germans for their engraving sins. No one does scroll like the British engravers, but much of their animal engraving makes the items under discussion here look good. Although, I hasten to add that I've seen a fair amount of German engraving where the dogs look like pigs, the deer look like pigs, the elk (red deer, I guess over there) look like pigs and the pigs look like pigs. And the ducks have bills that look like they came from a Hanna-Barbera cartoon.

One of the things I really dislike about a lot of engraving and almost all "wildlife art" is the never ending attempt to be as incredibly realistic as possible.

My favorite painting is a watercolor of a moose. There can be no doubt that it is a moose, or that the scene evokes exactly the same reaction as that very real environment does when I visit it again, but that moose is far less realistic that many of these engravings - and far more interesting for exactly that reason.

Brent

Brent, I quite agree. "Art on hunting arms" was and properly is about the invocation of the essence of things, not the objective appearance of things. Essentially it's about magic. And if you don't feel some of that magic when you see or pick up a hunting gun or knife--the same magic that takes you out of a warm bed into a cold dawn--to me there's something wrong.

For example, most "bullino" engraving, while I very much appreciate the technical and artistic expertise involved, leaves me cold. The "heavy chiseling" on these Germanic lowalls doesn't. Bullino is quite correctly called "banknote engraving"--much of it has more to do with banks and their whole milieu than with hunting as we know it.

Remington40x,
Are you saying that Germans is THE source for pig engraving. LOL
I'll store that info someplace.

An email from a friend who is an engraver.

Mike:

"Haven't had time to lurk for many a week, but dropped by and saw your thread on the Low Wall. Having looked at many different styles of engraving and studied them as best I can without many engravers to consult with, I think the level is better than the general run of comments. Couple of thoughts:

Literally all engravers anywhere at the time that piece was done were professionals who made a living at their trade. They did not have the luxury of time to pursue it as an avocation where untold hours as a hobbyist could produce exhibition level work (or have a patrone who would pay them for the best work they could produce). I remember reading about a Colt engraver taking several years to engrave a small .25 auto for himself - there simply wasn't time he could dedicate to his own project if he were to make a living (couldn't understand how that could be in the past, but am beginning to be there myself!). If you wander around the FEGA section in Reno, you will quickly find a large portion of engravers (as well as stockmakers and metalsmiths) have a pension of some sort, or do it as an avocation, making the bulk of their living in another manner. VERY FEW are capable of earning a complete living.

One thing not noted by anyone so far is that the metal has been sculpted in a similar fashion as that done by those tooling leather. Note many small, smooth, rounded marks on the figures and on certain scrolls. Not easy to be as even as this. These marks are made by a number of different sized rounded tools that peen the metal to shape it. A step upwards would be to use a burnisher and stones to smooth out those individual marks, but that adds time to the job. I doubt many engravers in the guild today could make wages on even that level of work..... (I know one masterful job done by a major guild engraver that took three years and produced about $20 an hour. lol) The background has been removed. It takes me about as along to remove background as it does to cut the scroll itself, basically doubling the time required. Easy rule of thumb when thinking about how to price a job.

I have always been a bit critical of those being critical unless they A. could do better themselves, or B. were willing to PAY for better. The guy whining about the price should ask a modern engraver to price the engraving job alone and see if he could get it done for the asking price of the entire rifle (I doubt if I'd take the job on for $14,000 - I think I'd be better off doing something else from the standpoint of money alone)."

I know it isn't relevant, but I'm glad he said it...

I guess I'm one of those whiners who can't do better myself and am too poor to commission an all-out effort, sorry about that(grin). But I know what I like and what I consider good work.

The finest engraver of my acquaintance is a master of the hammer-&-chisel method and strives to make $30/hr. He has no other pension and does this as his sole means of support, been that way for ~40 years now. Some of his work is among the finest I've seen while other examples aren't quite so good, but I can ASSURE EVERYONE that his worst piece is immeasurably better than what we've seen here. Here's a small example of the differences I'm speaking of.

Now take a look at some scrimshaw that I did by taking a 'lift' from the source image. Notice the much poorer quality of the cuts as compared to the steel engraving.

It's quite obvious that the scrimming is far less smoothly and expertly done than the engraving, yet the layout and essential design are identically pleasing. Worth the same money? Hardly.

BTW the study of the history of art will soon reveal an essential truth: the use of over-stylized images such as are found in bestiaries and heraldry is an avoidance technique. Using these images allows the artist (or rather, in many cases, the craftsman) to avoid having his product's appearance compared to reality. He can use his imagination to create a assembly-result without, in many cases, actually having to DRAW anything! Some artists call this 'derivative'.

Much of my own art may be considered 'derivative' but I call it 'lack of imagination'.

Even the earliest cave paintings attempt to replicate reality in the animals' shapes and the fluidity of their portrayed motion.

I'll return to the original thought: if I can't tell it's a lion then it's not representative and so how can it be pleasing?
Regards, Joe

I know that guy! He's working on my receiver right now, if he hasn't already shipped it off.



Exactly - but cave paintings are anything but "realistic" although they are certainly capable of depicting reality w/o any loss of information.

30,000 ybp



By the way, I really really like that bighorn portrait Joe!

Thanks for the kind words Brent, it's only a beginning and will be redone to improve the horn texture and add background mountains and a border. Also the ram is fossil ivory and I'll attempt to minimize the darker appearance of the big honkin' crack under his chin!

Yeah those cave animals aren't super-realistic but at least I can tell what they're supposed to be!
Regards, Joe

A then-famous west German master engraver told me about 25 years ago: "Wild boar are the hardest animals to engrave properly. You see, when you watch those pigs in the wild, they are hardly more than black blobs, without any prominent features you may catch in a line drawing. So it is very difficult to engrave a boar without exaggerating something." (free translation by me)

I dunno,some people think Picasso is the ultimate and others prefer Eakins or Sargent.I liked the engraving on the lo wall altho' I would not have commissioned it for myself.I like the LeFever and early Parker high grade scroll.

A study of the history of art would reveal that Picasso was using an avoidance technique.

LOL

Ken uses one of Lindsay's AirGravers for at least some of his work. I certainly don't consider that a fault of any sort.
Most engravers now use some sort of air assisted tool.
They are time savers if nothing else and if you're making a living at it,,,,.

Some start right out using one and I see that as a crutch of sorts. Never being capable of working with traditional tools of the trade leaves out an important part of the experience IMHO.
The air assisted tools are faster, cleaner cutting, can do some finer cutting that is very hard to master by traditional manner.

I started when there were no air assisted tools, so you either learned with hammer, chisel and graver or you failed. I tried a GraverMeister early on at a demo and didn't like it. That was probably 30 or 35 years ago.
But after 40+ years at it, a couple of bad accidents and a nerve disorder made it impossible to hold the chisel steady anymore.
I was done as far as the docs were concerned.

One last try was an air assisted tool and I've been able to get back to engraving again. Animals I still do with a chisel punch however as I can't quite hold the new tool in the correct position for the effect I need.
No where near the output I once did but at least I can still work.

Computers have come into the engravers workshop also. They are used in capturing pictures and images, redrawing them with the various 'photo-shop' type programs, re-sizing, flipping them, etc. There are several ways to print an image from paper to steel.
Not every engraver is a natural wildlife artist,,,not every wildlife artist is a natural engraver.

Lifting, preserving and reusing patterns has been done by engravers since the beginning. Even the 'masters' reused their favorite animal and wildlife layouts over and over again. A portfolio of pictures and pulls was never far from reach. Stacks of magazines and pictures clutter the shelves and floor of the engravers work area. Now the tech savy engravers put it all on their computers.

Gold inlay undercutting in done traditionally with punches to form the dovetail,,sometimes a knife edge graver is used.
Now ultra high speed dental tools w/ micro tiny burrs are being used to under cut lines so small that they are measured in a couple of .000" wide. Working under a microscope, wiskers on a tigers face can be inlayed with the system in a way hardly possible in years past.

The trade has evolved with technology.
Maybe some of it today isn't even 'engraving' anymore by the traditional definition. That should be kept in mind when judging older work against modern.

I think your post really puts some good perspective on this topic. Very interesting.

My cousin, a nationally-known exhibiting artist, paints in the school of "Expressionism" & "Abstract Expressionism" and apparently is quite well-thought-of in the art world.

"Abstract Expressionism", perhaps the ultimate avoidance technique.

I knew what 'Abstract' was but had never heard of 'Expressionism'; was somewhat prepared for something unusual; and was not disappointed in my expectation, only by her actual art. I asked her to explain the genre and her buzzwords were incomprehensible to me. Her husband was RAOTFLHAO, of course, 'cause he's got good sense (grin).

I return to the original position, if the viewer can't tell what is being represented then IMO it's not really worth viewing. If it's nothing more than Arabesque designs, fine, then make 'em attractive; if it's a scene or animal then make it identifiable!

But obviously one person's trash is another's treasure 'cause my cousin manages to sell enough of her trash to finance some fairly sporty junkets not to mention the ongoing back-&-forth from NM to NY. Like The Old Used-Car Salesman said, "There's an ass made for every car seat!"(grin)
Regards, Joe

Hey, that's what my horse does...

Done 35 years ago chasing hammer. Elk stands proud by ~.050"


Air powered hand tool I designed and made myself. Sample plate


Roger Sampson's work on my Fraser like gun I built. GraverMax. This is meant to be very utilitarian and in the style of the English factory engraving of the late 19th century. Coverage, not artistic expression.

I no longer engrave because of my eyes. However I am looking for a under privileged younger person who is into engraving and I would be willing to consider selling my tools for a really really good cost. If you know of someone I would like to know about them so we can consider that person to receive them.

I'll have to remember that term,abstract expressionism, for some of my painting efforts. I want to paint,can't be an Audubon or a Peale,so just make some designs that appeal to my sense of color,texture and proportion and have a go at it. I HAVE to do something and it does satisfy for the short term. Maybe Picasso would have done different if given another 90 years.

LRF - That is some beautiful work for sure. Thanks for posting.

Brent

Feeling more inadequate,artistically, by the minute.I wish I could "fill space" half that well.

Most impressionist artists can do realism, they simply choose not to.
Gun engraving is an entirely different thing as the "impressionists" are usually trying to do realism and can't.
I have a rifle out with an engraver right now for several thousand worth, and not a single animal.

Nice work LRF, and good to see that you hire a pro for the best guns...

SDH is correct; most of the Impressionists were masters of many styles, including almost photographic realism. They chose not to paint, engrave, sculpt, etc. that way, for various reasons--personal, political, and, of course, economic. Picasso had many styles in his long career and was very much influenced by such art as the cave paintings in Spain and France.

Not sure Impressionism is a good approach for gun ornamentation, for SO many reasons.

One man's trash is another man's treasure. <grin>

Yeek. I like the snow better than the rifles. And I HATE snow. What happened, we ran out of trees while I was nappin'? And all went blind? Lucky thing prairie dogs are color blind. Those actions deserve a nice warm walnut home....even birch plywood.

'Expressionism' is the term, not 'Impressionism'. I had the same problem, my mind kept saying 'Im' while my ears were hearing 'Ex' 'cause it was a totally unexpected and unfamiliar word.

I agree about the drawing ability of Impressionists, in fact it was their insightful perception of the softer edges mandated by binocular vision that led them to their softer-edged treatment. I have no problem with the great Impressionists, AAMOF I admire their work immensely.

I still haven't been able to find an understandable description of just exactly WHAT makes something Expressionistic except that the appearance MUST NOT replicate reality exactly, rather it must be evocative of the artist's mood & mental state & viewpoint of the world & some other stuff that escapes me now. Kinda like wine-tasting I guess, the terms really don't have the FULL meaning for such a heathen as myself (grin). And besides I like whiskey anyway.
Regards, Joe

Joe, I'm just a beer snob myself, so clearly I'm unqualified for just about everything above breathing. Nonetheless, it strikes me that there are two distinct groups within the gun-nut club. One group is made of folks that like what they like and they don't much worry about what others like. Some of them might fawn over a Frogmoor Ballard while another will opt for an art-deco double, but they are of the same club.

Then there is a group that likes what they think they are supposed to like. I've never understood this, but they are found in many other leagues of eccentrics

Of course, there are many in between these two groups, and that's all fine and good because it keeps stuff interesting.

Brent

Curious how you identify this group.

Picasso painted the way he did later in life because he felt traditional painting constrained his creativity. To think he painted like a child because he couldn't do any better is erroneous.

This is his first large scale painting, The First Communion, done in 1896 at age 15.




The Old Fisherman done at 14 years of age.

Well, there goes that theory out the window!

I call them 'The Rules' people. As in, 'The Rules' nowadays say that all contemporary custom Mausers MUST have special name-brand $500 bottom metal and Talley or special custom rings. As in, 'The Rules' back in the '80s said that all custom rifles must have their sling bases mounted in little pedestals that stood up proud from the smooth line of the rest of the stock. Remember that? 'The Rules' back in the '60s said that white-line spacers were required on everything!

It's one manifestation of The Emperor's New Clothes Syndrome. Lemmings.
Regards, Joe

Thanks for posting those, Rob!

Actually I don't recall ever mentioning Picasso, but no matter. It would be interesting to see if others of his paintings during the same period showed further or more definitive examples of his (apparent to me) improvement in the use of interesting details and layout of white space. It's easy to see that the second picture, although seemingly less aesthetically pleasing to me in some ways, is nevertheless technically superior in these areas.

Apparently (OBVIOUSLY!) his talent translated quite well into his ultimate new genre choice, but I'll still take these earlier examples, 10 to 1.
Regards, Joe

I am not an artist at all, my brothers and sisters are the artist in my family, however in an art class one time a professor explained a layman's definition to the terms fine art and folk art.
Fine art is art for arts sack and nothing more, stiring the inter emotions of the viewer, for pleasure or sometimes the opposite. That is why you can like or dislike a persons painting or sculpture; while folk art is the embellishment of the plain, the boring. An example would be rosemaling on dinner plates, which most Scandinavian amoung you will know, or the fanciful decoration of a weather vane on top of the barn, or engraving on a gun. A fancy painted plate or engraved gun is more pleasing to look at then the plain utilitarian.
Picasso's work is fine art. Kornbrath was a folk artist.
We may be mixing apples and oranges.

..and Elmer Crowell decoys may still bring over a million dollars at auction.

A mason decoy is a utilitarian, the plain...Elmer is folk art..

My uncle sold his collection of 2 dozen Mason's for enough to buy a new car 10 years ago..of course some of them were still unused and had been in the family for 70 years.

Joe, I see my mistake now. I'm (NOT coincidentally) in for an eye exam tomorrow morning....while engaged in "land stewardship" last Saturday (you commoners probably call it weeding) I very nearly hand-weeded a juvenile rattler who was coiled up among the thistles. Thank God critters out here are all about peace and love!

All gun engraving is applied art.
It is very rare to see engraving as Fine Art, it's most common application is bank notes. Bob Swartley has done some wine lables, and a very few artist work in this as a medium.
This is one of four steel plates (5 3/4" x 6 1/2") engraved by my friend Eric Gold in the late 90s and early 00s.
Each has the theme of big cats, Lion, Leopard, Cheetah and Jaguar. He then made epoxy casting from the plates in a limited Edition of 250 each, all sold out (mine are #68).
This was done with a Gravermeister electric handpiece under a binocular microscope.
The detail is incredible and Must be viewed with magnification. There is a herd of 20+ cape buffalo on the horizon.
I posted a slightly higher resolution than usual and on my screen is considerably larger than life size.
Best,
Steve
(BTW: This thread is about as close as we have ever come to a true chat room, eh?)

Wonderful work but I get a headache just thinking about the concentration to do such fine detail.

Some absolutely stunning work being done lately. The hours logged into some of these projects shown at the Guild shows and other places is really over the top.
I've never been able to put that amt of time into one project and to be honest I don't know if I could stand to work on one thing that long! My hats off to those that can.

Here's a Hepburn converted to an underlever style. I cut a pattern I thought suitable for the rifle. Nothing too fancy. Done with air assisted graver.


This is a Lefever A-Grade upgraded a bit for myself. The scroll cutting is air assisted again. The goose and dog are done with a small flat chisel and hammer in cross-hatch method.
First pic is after I put a 'grey' finish on the metal.





I've had to give up the hammer & chisel completely for engraving as I cannot hold them steady enough for even the simplest of cuts. Still learning with the 'power tools'. Resting my wrists on the vise and work I can still do the animals the old way I'm used to with a tiny blade chisel and hammer. I certainly didn't want to give it all up as some had suggested it was time for me to do.

While I normally abhor very large scroll, that Hepburn is Very nicely done and with perfectly fitting design. Excellent work Kutter!

The linked Mauser restores my pleasure in G&H and Kornbrath, neither of whom I particularly favor. And see what I mean about enlarging checkering?

Kutter, that is beautiful workmanship, thanks for showing it to us. I must admit that engraving should be viewed 'Life Size' rather than under a lens or microscope.

Rather like Oil Paintings that are appreciated more, if the observer is several yards away from the picture, or (in the case of Modern Art) five to ten miles distant and preferably facing in the opposite direction.

I have very definate views on art. lol.

Harry

I'm thinking someone,Mr. Petrov, should gather together some of these wonderful pictures and make a calender for sale to the masses. The pictures Hallowell puts on their website and Mr. Petrov's are really inspiring and would make a nice addition to any gun room.That Kurz Mauser is just wonderful and in my favorite chambering.

Kutter,

Wonderful work! I had Bob Swartley do a bundle of scroll on my underlever conversion Hepburn, but much less coverage than you did. Mine is perhaps 30% versus your full coverage. I really like yours - and also the use of the dog on the trigger bow of your Ithaca Lefever - very much like a detail from the earlier Lefever guns.

Wow...some folks really really dislike German Relief engraving! (sort how I feel about Fox AE, BE, CE, XE and DE engraving. you know what I mean. Wretched, poorly executed, game scenes and/or poison oak leaves with crap game scened animal outlines and detailing...ocasionally accompanied by lightnen' bolt engravin' mistakes....sheesh! Talk about bad engraving...yikes!)

The "lion head" scene that some one refered to in an earlier post is actually "The spirit man of the forest" or "Green man" of the forest and is linked to pagenism. This sort of motif is not commonly seen on German made guns. (I've only have seen it on a few Sauer produced pieces). The Green Man/Spirit Man engraving motif as used on Sauer made pieces is usually shown as a humanoid type face surrounded by whiskers..as is in the case of this Sauer low wall. While some would say the engraving on the piece is truly bad, I would ask "compared to what" (See rant about Fox engraving above)

The rifle was a special ordered piece and likely commisioned by its purchaser to incorporate the directed motif and was executed as directed. Honestly the first time that I saw it I thought it was commisioned by a some one from the United States living in Germany/Berlin. To my eye the rifle has this aire of US patriotism (Eagles) that I have never seen on any German gun.

Thanks Jeff, I thought I had seen that type lion head before and now remember I had seen the Green Man on another gun. I rather like that wily old guy.

Kutter, lovely scrollwork, I happen to think scroll truly suits that type action best.

Rob

Thanks to all for the comments. The Hepburn was a bit of a challenge in drawing the pattern in and around the handful of screws dotting the sides of the action. A couple are extras from the conversion if I recall correctly.
The small pat. date info on the left side bottom edge of the action was about gone by the time I finished polishing the action. Instead of recutting, I moved it to a banner placed just behind the hammer on the top tang. Made for an uninterupted side pannel too.

Here's a Colt Police Positive 38 prewar gun 1927?. A different style of scroll again. Smaller and tighter. A few touches of gold inlay, bbl bands and the Colt pony inlayed and detailed. Rust blue finish and grips are english walnut, 28lpi checkering. Another air assisted graver job except the gold inlay work. Haven't figured the way to do that yet but I'll have to as it isn't getting easier since this one was done..




Sorry about the poor quality of the pics,,a photographer I am not. Once in a while I get lucky.

Great Rampant Colt, & I really like the chain border.
Nice grips too!

Kutter, That Colt is beautiful!

I've really enjoyed reading this thread, learned a lot, and considering the rifle that started this thread, I just can't resist slipping this rifle into the discussion. Another german engraved single-shot with a full-length forend (by someone, or for someone, who really liked oak leaves).

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=223757791

Bill

Here are more oak leaves - this is a D M Lefever "cross bolt" gun from 1905. Probably 4AA grade, although not marked as to "quality".

Is that a dural frame or just bluing gone to plum?

By all appearances, that is a Stevens Favorite action. The hammer has been welded and the top tang extended.

This has certainly been one of the more edifying threads I've seen on the internet in a while.

Wonder WHEN Lowaller's Stevens (or copy?) was made. Got to be the most gussied-up Favorite I've ever seen!

Doesn't actually ascend to the "gilding a lily" level; more like gilding a dandelion, IMO. (Frank de Haas would have had a couple of choice things to say about it, for sure. But he WOULD have put it in his books as an example of what you COULD do with an ole Favorite if you had the desire and the $$$).

I also wonder why a Favorite? Was this perhaps done for some Ami who had a boyhood crush on that rifle? Certainly there were German actions that could be easily sourced that were easier to get than a Stevens, weren't there?

In general, I wonder why these American actions (lowalls and now a Stevens) were being used for German custom jobs? Were they done for Americans specifically, or for resale by an American firm that contracted for them? Were the American actions cheaper than equivalent German or Belgian actions that the German smiths could source? (Find that kinda hard to believe, as much as I admire JB's first design).

Were they made in some period when the sources of European actions to German smiths were disrupted by war or treaty? Puzzles me.

Kurt Jaeger opened a gunshop in Mainz around 1949. He also managed the gun shop of the Wiesbaden Rod & Gun Club at the (USAF) Wiesbaden Air Base Wiesbaden, Germany. It was not until 1952 that Germans could own a firearm.

Kurt Jaeger was not an engraver.

While I'm not much of an oakleaf fan, I do enjoy seeing these European-American single shots. And I very much enjoy the engraved raven, a populous bird around these part especially in winter, and a favorite of mine.

Steve,
How do you suppose that Raven is colored? It looks different - as if it was fire blued while the action was rust blued or something like that. Seems like an odd color anyway.

Brent

Only the animals and the stippled background are blued, the rest of the action appears grey/cased, I haven't a clue?
(That's a nitre blued scope base on top of the action)

Those Stevens actions are cast and usually turn purple after a while when hot blued.

If they'd take an eraser to the critters on the sides, they'd probably find them to be silver inlays.

A broken top tang is a frequent problem on those and they don't weld easily even with whats available now. I think they might have spliced a new top tang piece on for a repair somehow after squareing up the break. Looks like it has separated again.

They do silver solder quite well but it shows when it's blued, and it won't take the heat of C/C.
Braze will make it through C/C but will still show a line.

Alot of work in that Stevens.

Kutter, I was thinking about silver, or possibly steel that was inlayed after a different type of treatment than the receiver. Sure it different. I like the contrast of the raven with the action. Not much, but enough to really make it stand out.

After that, I don't seen anything to like about the rifle from the rest of the engraving to the stock layout - and that hammer is just wildly out of proportion and place. But that's just my opinion and wasn't the customer.

The sterling or coin silver just turns black after a while. Even 'Fine' Silver will oxidize a bit.

Alot of the guns from Kurt Jeagers shop after the war seem to have had silver inlays. Perhaps there was a problem getting gold suitable for the inlay work,,jewelry alloys are generally in the 10,12,14k range and the lower karats can be difficult to work. Coin silver or sterling works pretty easily and was fairly plentiful. Just a guess.
At any rate, it does oxidize rather quickly to a fairly tough matt black surface.

They could be steel inlays, but I'd expect them to have the same bright blue as the other blued parts. At least the same blue color as the spliced in part on the top tang. Using something like 12L14 (ledloy)steel today, steel inlays are not much of a problem,,certainly not much more than working with 10K or 12k gold. That can give you a fight as it work hardens so fast trying to get it set.

Some Ithaca higher grade SxS's had the inlays done in silver and are often mistaken as a steel cut figure instead of the silver they are for the same reason.

Whatever it is I just don't think it that complicated.
Doubt silver because the background is the same and wouldn't look right to have the subject and background the same pre-oxidized. Not steel because it would be too difficult to blue then inlay.
All we can do is guess...

I surely do enjoy the raven!

A raven seems to have been a fairly popular choice on varmit and other small caliber rifles back then. I can think of a few times I've seen them used pre war and early post war. But not much of late.

No I don't think steel inlays either. Not because of the difficulty in inlaying the stuff, but rather because of the color they are now.
The work is done 'in the white'. The resulting blue is from the whatever blueing process done to the receiver,,the inlays receive also.

In this case the cast steel(?) composition of the receiver later turned to the purple color seen. The darker color of the stippled and line cuts is common, same as when a grey finish is done.
I don't know the chemistry of it all, but they will turn when hot blued and a good chance of doing so when nitre blued too.
If steel inlays, the contrast should be as seen in the top tang repair splice,,the bright blue of carbon steel against the now turned purple cast receiver material.

I still vote for silver, but I doubt the seller would go for the eraser test on his 3K rifle at my suggestion!

You are right,,all we can do from a distance is guess...



This has been a most enjoyable thread..