doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com EPA bans lead shot use with depredation permits

One repercussion of "cleaning up" prairie dogs is Bubonic Plague. They are know carriers. I am not trying to defend 'dog shooters, or the AR-15 toting varmit vigil-antis. Just a small bit for thought. In some areas, it is illegal to transport carcasses of prairie dogs. I don't agree with setting up portable tables and shooting for hours blowing up the little buggers and then leaving a mess of brass, trash, ect. This is pig-headed redneck activity. We owe mother nature the right to leave it as close to we found it.

Some cases there is a need for prairie dog reduction, I don't really care about your crop fields, though, the 'dogs were there first! They do however multiply like wild fire, and like snow geese can reach a point where they harm their own well being, and in that case I'd much rather see a sportsman kill some than joe blow running out there with some poison. What good does a poisoned carcass do if a scavanger of some sort eats it?

I'd think that one possible option would be to dig a hole and shovel them in it.

I'm all for sustainable harvest and for responsible wildlife management up to and including taking care of excess prairie dog towns...don't get me wrong.

Last time I was in Wyoming on Bureau of Land Management property there was a decades old eyrie (nest) for large hawks that produced young every year in the Red Desert for as long as I've been alive. There were no active nests (vacant primary and alternate) and almost no prairie dog towns either, yet there were tons of holes. Was it poison or lead toxicity that caused the absence of hawks? I have no idea. What I do suspect is that someone came out to OUR LAND, BLM land of the citizens of the USA and wiped out a prairie dog town of about 1000 dogs, enough to feed an entire ecosystem. This land was not private property and it wasn't injuring a cattlemen or rancher's business. It was just thought to be helping the world by slaying animals in the middle of nowhere for purely recreational purposes with no harvest, no pelts taken, no use reclaimed by the taking of the animals lives.

And I've preached enough so I'm done. I'm just trying to illustrate the behaviors that will give sportsman a black eye in the end.

I did not hear you say any game laws were broken in your example given. I think you know nothing goes to waste in nature. Given the modern conveniences of life there is no need to harvest any animal. All hunting is recreational. Hunters are more vulnerable because we have tendency to critically judge one another rationalizing what we each do as needed, superior etc vs some practice we don't agree with. United we stand and divided we fall.

Rookhawk, the analysis on the California Condor that reports that the lead found in it was "munitions grade" lead is pure bullshit. There is no such thing as munitions grade lead. There are different isotopes of lead as all elemental lead on this planet comes from the natural decay of uranium. So lead mined in two different places can be of differing isotopes, but lead from both of those sources can be used to make bullets. Depleted uranium can be used to make bullets. Uranium 235 or 238 could be used to make bullets, and eventually over millions of years they would decay into some isotope of lead. And birds do pass foreign matter like a mammal and any other vertebrate, and many invertebrates. Everyone here knows that and they have cleaned it off of their windshields... usually right after washing the car. And raptors certainly can pass lead through their digestive systems, or they may retain it in their gizzard along with other grit and gravel. But being such a stable substance, only a miniscule part of the small total available would ever end up in the bloodstream. Do birds die of lead poisoning? I'm sure they do, but it is not the environmental disaster that these bird lover organizations and anti hunting organizations make it out to be. You lose credibility when you repeat misinformation that is intended to be used to ban lead ammunition. I read the peregrine fund studies a while back when goofy Ben Deeble posted those same links here. They were full of junk science and agenda driven bullshit then, and they still are. Maybe you mean well, or maybe you really are working with Ben Deeble (GrouseGuy). Or maybe you really ARE Ben Deeble using another screen name here.

P.S. My profound apologies if you really are not Ben Deeble. Accusing you of that if it were not true would be a ghastly insult.

I do admit that I can get nasty with folks who perpetrate bullshit for the sole purpose of undermining the Second Amendment and I make no apologies. However, I would like you to reproduce the direct quote where I got nasty with you where it bordered on a "death threat". I fully admit that I was not nice to you. I was not nice to you because you are an agenda driven liar whose sole purpose here is to disseminate misinformation in order to advance your lead ammunition ban cause. You can cloak yourself in sportsmans garb and claim to scatter tons of lead on the trap range, but almost everyone here knows what you're really about. The only threat I pose to you is trying to make sure that the gullible don't fall for your tactics.

A. There are several ways to show something as munitions grade lead that I can think of off the top of my head:
1. You analyze the orientation of the material to indicate it was refined and smelted, not naturally formed. (which would appear as haphazard and impure)
2. You identify the exact mixture of lead to other alloys which may go so far as identifying the bullet manufacturer.

B. Something need not be illegal to be immoral. Laws set minimum standards for human behavior, not ideal behaviors. Someone that rests their laurels on the notion of being "a law abiding citizen" is no man of measure. Frankly, a man is judged by being on the right side of history regardless of whether they are in compliance with the law or not. E.G. how many people (Charleton Heston included) violated civil ordinances to march with Dr. King?
1. In the case of the probable wholesale slaughter of the prairie dog towns I was speaking of in the Red Desert of Wyoming, you're missing the point.

What do you call it when someone loads up piles of guns, drives or flys hundreds of miles to public BLM land where they have NO stake in protecting crops, ranches, cattle or horses, and they decide to destroy every animal of a native species as they can for recreation? What would you call the person if they choose to use frangible ammunition that creates a explosive effect where the prairie dogs have an even more awe-inspiring death than when hit by FMJ bullets?

You call that a sportsman. I call that a sociopath.

Someone is traveling to a location with no intention of harvest, no intention of use, no intention of protecting habitat supported by science, no intention of protecting agriculture lands, no motive other than to observe animals dying for their own pleasure.

That is the same mindset of a child that would enjoy hitting kittens over the head with a baseball bat. It isn't purely the action, it is the motive behind the action. The motive in the case above is personal pleasure and it is not offset by a guiding principle or benefit.

We create hunting laws that establish protections for people from being charged with animal cruelty laws. The argument in law is that the results (death or injury) to the animal aren't what should be judged, but rather the intention of the participant. It is the motives that determines whether someone is evil or good, immoral or moral. Using the shield of hunter's protections to pile up wildlife to rot and kill other wildlife without any just motivation, harvest, sustenance or protection of one's property is just not hunting. It's sociopathic behavior being cloaked under the veil of "hunting" and it doesn't need to be supported, it needs to be excommunicated from within the sporting community.

Also: Raptors do not eat grit and gravel nor do they have a "gizzard" as you put it. They do not defecate pieces of lead ingested either, at least not if they have any size to them whatsoever.

I'd like to point out this all started with a polite suggestion from a fellow hunter to just "not be part of the problem" resulting in a lead ban. Clean up your field of carcasses or dig a pit and bury your gut piles and everyone can enjoy their liberties indefinitely. The response was "you're full of crap", "I disagree completely" and "you're not a real hunter, you're a gun grabber". At the end of the day, whether the science is true or false, the bans will happen because people are unwilling take simple steps to clean up which will send the message hunters cannot be trusted to self regulate.

Lot of crap here that don't flush. First hunting laws are not created to prevent charges of animal cruelty. Hunting laws were established and maintained to CONSERVE wildlife and for no other reason. They predate the concept of animal cruelty which presumes animals have rights, which they don't, they don't because they cannot understand and adhere to a social contract with humans or other animals.

Shooting p dogs is not tantamount to hitting a kitten in the head with a bat because a kitten is not a VARMINT.

I would call someone who uses frangible bullets on game intelligent because the use of FMJ bullets is going to lead to a high number of wounded animals, the idea is to kill them and kill them outright.

Good grief trying to extropalate some measure of morality equivalent to the civil rights movement here is nothing short of bizarre. Once again the p dogs are VARMINTS. If you care about them so much work to get a daily bag limit established and a set season. Otherwise I call the guys who enjoy varmint hunting to be stakeholders in the wildlife agencies their hunting licenses and Pitman-Robinson taxes support. People like you.

They way you make it sound we should all be tripping over the dead raptors, coyotes, foxes and other scavengers poisoned by lead shot or bullets. It's not happening to any large extent, it is junk science with anti hunting and anti gun support drawn to it.

The bans will happen because government at all levels has grown far too big and continues to strangle the very life out of what once was a free society and you are either one of it's agents or Lenin's useful idiots.

Rookhawk, I did not think you would flush so early, but I knew you would eventually. Now this hunter (or sociopath as you call us) would like to correct you on a few of your rebuttal points.

You said, "Birds don't pass foreign matter like a mammal. It lingers in their crop until it either regurgitates or it dies." That is wrong. Actually, bird digestive tracts are typically much shorter than most mammals and they don't have urinary tracts which means that liquid waste in the form of mostly uric acid is excreted along with the solids. Undigestible solids can and do pass right through. That is why we often see whole seeds, which were not ground up by the gizzard, in bird droppings. Some solids like intentionally or accidentally ingested grit may be retained by the gizzard or linger in the crop until it is regurgitated along with other undigestable matter. Lead pellets or bullet fragments are among those undigestible items that are thusly excreted out of one end or the other, i.e., cloaca or mouth. Actually, birds are very efficient at expelling solid waste because they eat a larger percentage of their body weight each day to support their faster metabolisms than most other vertebrates. So if they did not excrete these solids quickly, they would soon amass too much weight to fly. In many coastal areas of the world, this solid matter accumulates many feet thick as bird guano, and it is mined or dug up to produce fertilizer.

You said, "Raptors do not eat grit or gravel nor do they have a "gizzard" as you put it". Actually, they only pick up grit or gravel incidentally as it sticks to the raw meat they consume. This incidental grit may be retained for a time in their ventriculum which is also known as a gizzard. Raptor gizzards (ventriculum) are usually not as large as those found in herbivorous birds, but they do indeed have them to assist in grinding and mashing meat before it passes into the stomach and intestinal tract. I knew this to be true, but it has been over 25 years since I had courses in comparative vertebrate anatomy, so I got my books out and double checked myself to make certain it was you who is wrong.

You are the one who cited lead isotope analysis as the tool used to ascertain that a certain condor died from lead poisoning due to ingesting "munitions grade lead" Now you change your story to say that lead can be analyzed to determine if it is alloyed with certain metals or to see if it has been smelted, thus verifying that it is bullet metal. First, let me repeat, there is no such thing as "munitions grade lead". The lead that is used in wheelweights, fishing sinkers and jigs, roof flashing, old pipes, antique toy soldiers, and a million other things including bullets and shot is all the same. I have already explained that all of these items can be of the same or different lead isotopes. I could also doctor a condor carcass with tortillas and guacamole if I wanted to blame condor deaths on an influx of illegal Mexican immigrants. In short, I don't believe the perigrine fund junk science. Neither should you. It is making you look foolish and gullible.

Unfortunately, you have already tipped your hand and showed us your cards. Although most of us avoid gut shots at all costs, you want us to remove or bury all gut piles because hunting disgusts you. It matters not at all that the vast majority of gut piles contain zero lead. To you, varmint hunters are sociopaths, no different than sick folks who would beat a kitten with a ball bat. To you, it is fortunate for us that we have a hunting license and game laws or we would all face prison as Michael Vick did for his dog fighting animal cruelty charges. What we do may be legal, but in your mind, it is immoral and you are working to change things. You start with an inch and then go for a mile. But I know your types. I have engaged and debated your types before. You all have your special warm and fuzzy creature you feel compelled to protect. It may be kittens or raptors or whales or some other Disney creature. You think you are better and more moral than we who hunt or eat meat. But in the end, almost invariably, your deep respect for sentient life is found to be limited too. You are not at all like those certain Bhuddist Monks who precede their steps with a broom so as not to accidentally kill even the smallest creature. No, you will be found wearing leather shoes or belts. You will wantonly kill some of God's creatures just the same as the rest of us. Just let a rat or mouse gnaw its' way into your house and you will kill and poison, suffering creature be damned. You will swat a housefly or a mosquito without a second thought and if you ever found cockroaches in your apartment, nothing would stop you from going after them with all out extermination. We find then that your definition of sentient life is confined to your own area of warm and fuzzy interest. In short, we find that you are petty hippocrites.

Keith,

You must result to utter slander when to defend yourself because you must deal in rhetoric, not facts.

Personal facts about me that go against your slander:

1. Hunter for 25+ years
2. Wildlife rehabillitator for 20+ years
3. Published in multiple languages
4. Co-founder of multiple non-profit hunting groups
5. NRA life member
6. Devout carnivore. (I eat game at least twice a week)
7. USFWS licensed Raptor Rehabillitator

So while you attempt to use personal insults and accusations of liberal leanings to attack me, I instead attack your position because the science is not as fuzzy as you wish, nor are your gut piles as clean as you wish.

Your inability to have a clean debate demonstrates that there is no point to further discourse with you. When failing to compel with arguments, you resort to claims that I'm a "plant" of a leftist group.

Rookhawk,

I prefer the term "Trojan Horse". If someone should extend their right hand to me for a handshake, but I notice the dagger in their left hand, I will not wait until the blade is in my back before I react. Your discourse here told us all we really need to know. Your resume is printed on toilet paper.