doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com EPA bans lead shot use with depredation permits

Really? You want us to believe that only one specific isotope of lead is used for making shot and bullets? And you want us to believe that this specific lead isotope is used for nothing else and that Man's ammunition is the only environmental source for this lead isotope? This statement is just further proof that junk science is being regurgitated by people with little or no understanding of science, for the sole purpose of advancing an agenda. That agenda is banning guns and hunting.

The simple fact is that any isotope of lead can be alloyed with tin, antimony, or any other metal used to produce lead projectiles and lead isotope analysis cannot in itself differentiate between lead from paint and lead from bullets if both sources used lead from the same mines or same isotope. I also do not believe the oft-repeated statement that a single rice grain sized piece of lead will kill a raptor unless that piece of lead is propelled at about 1100 feet per second and hits said raptor in the head. If this same rice grain sized piece is ingested, virtually 100% of it will be excreted before it can cause poisoning. Lead, as you say, is quite stable, and it will not dissolve in digestive acids quickly enough to do much harm. The lead plates in your car battery are submerged in acid for years without dissolving. I wish people would use their heads before they swallow this crap.

All we need now is for that goofball Ben Deeble to chime in.

I see two points raised here that cause me to ask questions or express concerns:

First, if more Western raptors are dying today, why is this happening? Is more varmint hunting taking place? We've been shooting prairie dogs for years, yet it seems that the problem has only come front and center recently, as various groups (and some state game agencies) push for further lead restrictions.

Second, the switch to nontox for shotgunners is a far greater problem than some would think. Yes, there are nontoxic alternatives. But the ones that are friendly to old barrels and vintage shotguns are outrageously expensive. We're talking in the neighborhood of 5 to 10 times as much, depending on whether it's relatively inexpensive lead target ammo, or lead or steel hunting loads, to which we're doing a price comparison. And steel is far more of an issue than the game agencies claim. "Fine in any modern shotgun", they'll tell you. That's not what Browning says on their website--unless you consider Belgian Brownings, made into the 70's, as "vintage" guns rather than modern. And while steel is fine in 12ga guns, it gets iffy in anything smaller, and it pretty much eliminates the 28 and .410 for hunting.

But an expanded lead ban, even if it doesn't really make sense, is the easy way for the regulators to go. And government usually takes the easy way.

Bingo, you got it. Understanding their game is only half the battle. It is good to bring up this topic here when there is news, but we/us arguing with each other will not stop it. We need to expend some of that energy to call-write-e-mail our Congressmen. And we need to show a large united front and the best way to do that is to stop procrastinating or finding excuses and join the NRA. There is no better or more powerful advocate for us on this issue, and increasing NRA membership is the cheapest gun insurance policy we can buy.

Here's another point to ponder---- varmit shooters, particularly those after P dogs and whistlepigs, are equipped for the task at hand. That is, flat shooting rifles capable of 3000FPS+ at the muzzle. I wonder how many carcasses of, in the case of P dogs(unless they're wearing flak jackets) retain the slugs used to dispatch them ?????
I call BS, just like the "sick" eagle that started us down the road of ineffective steel shot.

...or the dead loon that had "ingested" a whole string of lead sinkers and spinners which sparked the nearly nationwide ban on using lead for freshwater fishing.

So to provide the answers inquired upon:

1. Raptors are more susceptible to lead (and zinc) toxicity than mammals because of the method of digestion that occurs. The method of interaction between crop, stomach and digestive track is different and renders lead in a more lethal fashion.

2. The argument was about the risk of a piece of lead the size of a grain of rice being extremely dangerous or lethal to a raptor. That is true not only due to point 1, but also by the math. A male eagle weighs six pounds on average. A large hawk weighs 3 pounds on average. Lets say that a piece of lead the size of a grain of rice is perhaps 3 grams. That would be the equivalent dose of a man that weighs 300 pounds consuming 150 grams of lead. If you like ounce conversion that is 5.25 ounces of lead or 1/3 of a pound. So if you wanted to take the unscientific argument that all animals are equal, just on a weight ratio it could be like a human eating several ounces of lead which of course would not be pleasant. (but again, point 1 above, it is worse)

3. The types of lead alloys that are refined for firearms are different than naturally occurring lead and it is also different than lead used by other materials industries. The analysis on the California Condor that started all of this research was that the isotopes from the lead ingested or found in their bloodstream was munitions grade.

4. Yes. FMJ bullets go through varmints and are less dangerous. However, most bullets used for varmints are designed for a whimsical splatter that creates a rather awe inspiring shot channel. Examples would be the 17HMR 17gr hollowpoints that shatter into hundreds of pieces on impact.

5. Here is the evidence by a non-government agency run by individuals that are hunters and ranchers (that are also PhDs and biologists) http://www.peregrinefund.org/lead_conference/PDF/0104%20Friend.pdf

6. Great xray picture of lead fragmentation in a large game animal at this site if you want to see just how many grains of rice sized pieces of lead are lingering in a kill. http://www.peregrinefund.org/lead_conference/

7. More on point 2. No lead is excreted from a raptor. Birds don't pass foreign matter like a mammal. It lingers in their crop until it either regurgitates it or dies.

Rookhawk, re #5 . . . have you read that entire paper? It gives NO EVIDENCE whatsoever for transitioning to nontoxic shot other than for waterfowl. Rather, it simply reviews the history of the lead ban for waterfowl, and suggests how "we" can do a better job of expanding nontoxic shot requirements to other species.

In other words, zero "good science" for birds other than waterfowl . . . and an assumption that the lead shot ban should be expanded, MINUS "good science" to support it. The authors have concluded that the ban should be expanded, without telling the readers why.

And I would note that if you go to the website, www.peregrinefund.org, it is not at all an "organization of hunters and ranchers". Rather, it is an organization which has as a goal the preservation of birds of prey, worldwide. Some members may indeed be hunters and ranchers; others may very well be anti-hunters. Or anti-gun hunting, assuming they're falconers.

With respect, let's not say that. Three grams would be about the weight of a #1 buckshot. A grain of rice would be something like an order of magnitude smaller. For comparison, a pellet of #4 lead birdshot is approximately 0.21g. What is the source of your information?

Regards,
Joel

my apologies. Error in conversion thinking grains and put grams.

It seems my conversion error will serve as a perfect excuse for people to leave carcasses in the field with frangible ammo lodged inside. I guess, go for it.

It has only resulted in the ban of lead in much of California already. It'll hit BLM land (most of the Western US) next when some clown outfitter brings some city boys out to clear 10 prairie dog towns and the media takes video of raptors running around in circles on the ground dying of lead toxicity.

Or, someone could be on the right side of history by simply cleaning up after themselves and not being a sportsman that is part of the problem.

The problem with the argument is simple: I'm stating there is evidence and regardless of the amount of damage which we can debate, I can prove at least some amount of damage. The opposing side says they will ignore the evidence and continue doing an activity that may be harmful until they are satisfied. Since it costs little to nothing to err on the side of cautious cleanup, I'd say it sounds like these folks will not be persuaded.

Hey Rookhawk:

You make some good points, and seem quite knowledgeable. I've gone a few rounds with the guys on this board, and some like Larry are reasonable, though his reasoning always seems to break in the direction of continuing to use lead. Others like Keith will spin off into some real nastiness bordering on death threats if you challenge him with facts. Anger control can be one of the symptoms of lead toxicity! Send me a PM if you want to see a fairly comprehensive bibliography of lead poisoning in wildlife, or you can find what I posted in the archives here.

On the topic, it surprises me the extent to which the board members here seem ignorant of one of the primary uses of depredation permits issued by the USFWS... it is for aquatic birds around aquaculture operations, particularly catfish farms whacking cormorants and some of the herons, in some cases even pelicans.

Is this an appropriate setting for the use of lead shot? Let me guess what we are going to read.... (if I could just get some ear protection for my eyes).