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Joined: Jan 2002
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 11,571 Likes: 165 |
Kensal, sleeving goes beyond being "non-original". Were that the only issue, then a sleeved gun would not have much difference in value than a gun with a set of replacement barrels--which is also non-original. The difference in the two is that if replacement barrels are fitted--a much more expensive undertaking--then more careful attention is likely to be paid to overall balance. Sleeving, as Dig pointed out, can run the gamut from a fairly cheap process (certainly compared to new barrels!) to a good bit more expensive process. Not that there aren't sleeved guns that balance well and are very good jobs, but it's certainly not a given.
And a sleeved gun is only superior to an "original" which has some sort of serious barrel issues: badly pitted, really thin walls, etc. And the process will likely only be done on an original which is otherwise in pretty good condition, and which would have sold for halfway decent money were it all original. In other words, no one's going to sleeve a hard-used BLNE for resale, because the price it will bring (assuming a good sleeve job) won't justify the cost of the sleeving. But it can be a good way to own a gun you otherwise could not afford (like my Purdey 16, described above) for way less money than an original in proof and in reasonably good condition.
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Joined: Oct 2007
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 496 |
Mr. Brown:
Thank you. You make my points. Notice I said "properly sleeved" -- by which I mean an invisible job, done by an expert, with barrels struck to contour and considered in the proper rebalance of the whole gun. Sadly, there is no such thing as a good/cheap sleeve job.
You also underscore my earlier point with your sleeved Purdey. It is doubtless a most fine gun, still a Purdey, and affordable to you because the previous (and presumably original) barrels were unsafe to shoot. Now it returns good service and is a point of pride for you.
I've owned many sleeved guns and they all balanced and shot well. And I never shed a single tear over their barrel steel. "Value" is much in the eye of the beholder.
This ought to be good for at least 10 more posts...
Best, Kensal
Last edited by Kensal Rise; 01/19/11 04:49 PM.
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Joined: Jan 2002
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 10,718 Likes: 1355 |
I never claimed sleeving was better, worse, or the same as original, Larry. I simply said it wasn't for me, and a set of barrels with such work are worth less than sound original barrels. A safe, I suppose, assumption is there are other "me's" out there, that feel the same, otherwise they would be worth the same, or more, right?
I also point out that a monobloc is not a sleever, and vice-versa when someone makes the mistake of calling them the same. Small point, but, they are notably different.
Best,
Ted
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Joined: Jan 2002
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 11,571 Likes: 165 |
Certainly worth less than sound original barrels, Ted. After all, sleeving is a pretty big departure from "original", and anything that big (unless it's to restore a really sad case as close as possible to original) is going to result in a lower price. Not to mention that you can't buy a set of new barrels for what you'll pay for sleeving, so obviously it's worth less. Doesn't really have anything to do with whether people WANT sleeved guns, however. It's just that if they know anything at all, they also expect to pay a lot less for a sleeved gun.
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Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,544
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,544 |
Some people won't buy a sleeved gun.
Some people won't by a gun with barrels less than 30 thou thick.
Some people won't buy a re-stocked gun.
There is a market for everything, some people aren't in it.
Let's test this.
Those of you who won't buy a thin walled gun. If I offer you a Purdey sidelock with sound barrels down to 18 thou for 100 would you be interested?
How about the same gun with sleeved barrels for the same money? Those of you who won't buy a sleeved gun - A sleeved Purdey for 100?
I reckon you are all interested right?!
There will come a point where the thin walls or the sleeving, being other than your ideal of good thick original barrels, will cause you to lose interest. What is that point: 120? 500? 5,000? The point will come. and it will come a lot lower than the point at which you would be interested in the gun with thick original barrels.
However, in the market, some people cannot have everything they want for what they are able to pay.
You want an English side-lock for 4,000. You can't have a first quality original condition London gun in case with all accessories because nobody will sell you such a gun for the money you have.
So, you set your sights according to your budget. Some will go for a thinner walled gun, some for a sleeved gun, some for a lower quality gun. Each decision is personal but there is a place in the market for everything. You pays your money and takes your choice.
A sleeved gun is clearly 'worse' than an original gun in terms of value but not in terms of performance if the job has been done properly. The 'worse' tag relates to the ideal being in perfect original condition. As a gun gets further from this ideal it becomes less expensive.
Last edited by Small Bore; 01/20/11 12:59 AM.
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Joined: May 2010
Posts: 1,543 Likes: 102
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 1,543 Likes: 102 |
As I understand it ,an wholly original gun,even one that well past its best, is worth more in the US than one that has been rebuilt or refinished? Assuming that it is still able to be shot,at the owners risk ?Does this apply to other things as well? Does a 1952 Cadillac that's been in a barn for 40 years, with perished tyres and covered in chicken droppings ,have a greater value than the same car that has been rebuilt and renovated ,with custom made non original parts.
This is not a spurious question as I have come across the same thing in the UK . A totally rebuilt vintage car is worth thousands ,yet a sleeved or rebarreled gun if not by the original maker is down valued. WHY???
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 3,337 Likes: 339
Sidelock
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OP
Sidelock
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 3,337 Likes: 339 |
Some people won't buy a sleeved gun.
Some people won't by a gun with barrels less than 30 thou thick.
Some people won't buy a re-stocked gun.
There is a market for everything, some people aren't in it.
Let's test this.
Those of you who won't buy a thin walled gun. If I offer you a Purdey sidelock with sound barrels down to 18 thou for 100 would you be interested?
How about the same gun with sleeved barrels for the same money? Those of you who won't buy a sleeved gun - A sleeved Purdey for 100?
I reckon you are all interested right?!
There will come a point where the thin walls or the sleeving, being other than your ideal of good thick original barrels, will cause you to lose interest. What is that point: 120? 500? 5,000? The point will come. and it will come a lot lower than the point at which you would be interested in the gun with thick original barrels.
However, in the market, some people cannot have everything they want for what they are able to pay.
You want an English side-lock for 4,000. You can't have a first quality original condition London gun in case with all accessories because nobody will sell you such a gun for the money you have.
So, you set your sights according to your budget. Some will go for a thinner walled gun, some for a sleeved gun, some for a lower quality gun. Each decision is personal but there is a place in the market for everything. You pays your money and takes your choice.
A sleeved gun is clearly 'worse' than an original gun in terms of value but not in terms of performance if the job has been done properly. The 'worse' tag relates to the ideal being in perfect original condition. As a gun gets further from this ideal it becomes less expensive.
Hi all, I think Dig hit it with his post. While all of us want an original untouched gun in great to mint condition, it's just not in the cards for all of us. Sure you can save and save and wait 2-3 years or more to get one (in the mean time the prices just go up)and something always happens that drain your funds. Or you can set your sights a bit lower and try and get a good decent gun and be able to shoot it and enjoy it while you can. The older we get, the less time we have to enjoy such things. Who knows what's going to happen to us in a couple years. God does, not me. I guess I'd rather get a good gun (sleeved, reconditioned/refinished etc) and have fun rather than wishing I had. I myself have no probelms with a sleever, if it's well done and the balance is the same or even close (sometimes it can be hard to tell on the balance thing, what works for one does not always work for another). Out of proof, questionable, but possible, same for thin bbls. As to refinished, does not bother me at all. I'd rather have a gun that's refinished well and yes looks good than one that looks like she's been thru the wringer. I've got some deals over the years with just such guns. They may not be perfect, but for me they shoot well and they have done great service. As Dig more or less said, there is a gun for everyone and a market for every gun. That said, thanks Dig for a great post! All the best! Greg
Gregory J. Westberg
MSG, USA
Ret
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Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 707
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 707 |
Gunman wrote:
Does this apply to other things as well? Does a 1952 Cadillac that's been in a barn for 40 years, with perished tyres and covered in chicken droppings ,have a greater value than the same car that has been rebuilt and renovated ,with custom made non original parts.
Answer:
Yes. A unrestored vintage automobile that has never been molested, repainted or improved in fair condition is worth more than a restored car. The reason: there are less unmolested antiques than restored/reconditioned/altered/improved versions of any item.
Now does that apply to guns? I have absolutely no idea because I know more about cars than I do about guns. For ME personally, I love buying vintage shotguns, particularly from Atkins, Grant & Lang pedigree that have been restored. I get to own a beautiful item that is affordable and is built with far more charm and beauty than anything modern for 4x the price. That is my preference, albeit my guns aren't worth $15k because they are sleeved or refinished in some fashion. Yet I love them, I enjoy shooting them often and they are the perfect blend of classic and modern for my preferences.
My next gun will be a sleeved H&H or Purdey I buy out of the UK and have the wood and locks refinished and fitted to me. I'll shoot a masterpiece for the price most people pay for a nicely outfitted Guerini or Beretta. Would the purist collectors want this gun I hope to own? No. Will I have fun shooting it and will it have good value looking like brand new after restoration? YES!
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Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 15,462 Likes: 89
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 15,462 Likes: 89 |
Ted just likes to rant because he doesn't own a SxS worth sleeving 
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