doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Refinished/Out of Proof Brit Guns

Didn't mean to come off as rude, just mentioning to my friend KyJon that in the UK, a bad gun may sell for less than a good gun, something he didn't expect to come from you. I found that to be a great observation on your part. I'm sure you separate the good guns from the bad ones the same way we do, with a $100 wall thickness gauge.

Dig,
Remember, that there are a few of us who will not consider a sleeved gun, period. Thus, with a sleeving job, you have taken a gun that was worthless, and actually have negative equity in it with a sleeve job. Like I said, to a few of us.
The people who seem to rave the loudest about sleevers are dealers, from what I've seen. Enough said, there.
Since it was brought up earlier in the post, let me repeat, for the 10,000th time-a monobloc is not a sleever, and a sleever is not a monobloc.

Best,
Ted

My favorite bird gun is an E.M. Reilly & Co. boxlock with an 'invisible' sleeve job. The gun retains it's balance and is a joy to use. Its also safe to shoot, which it most likely was not before it was sleeved. I don't see the prejudice against 'sleevers'...Geo

Sleeving . . . agree and disagree. I've owned two sleevers, a Scott and a Purdey. Both were 16's. The Purdey was a B Quality gun, extractor, and had Brileys as well as the sleeve job. Both were decent enough as shooters, but the non-originality certainly impacted their value. I knew that going in, and it worked out OK for me when I disposed of them.

Ted, if there were no market for sleeved guns, no one would buy them--and they would disappear. But there is, and they're not going to. As long as you know what you're getting into from the get-go, it can work out fine. And the process is not all that different from monobloc, or from the French "canons frettes". On the Manufrance Robusts, the "canons frettes" boast by far the most visible "seam" of all! A blind man can spot one of those. Nothing against them; they're very solid guns. But that "step" is pretty unique.

Diference between a sleeved gun & a Monobloc is that the breech piece on the monobloc was machined from a "Single" (mono) piece of steel. The breech piece left after cutting off the tubes for sleeving will retain whatever type of joining it had originaly, whether chopper lump, dovetail, conventional, shoe lump or whatever. The act of cutting off the tubes does not convert it to a monobloc, though the method of adding the new tubes is done in a similar fashion.
Henri Pieper's original patent for this method of construction had the "Fretted" construction. This was because the breech piece (Piepers term) was bored on a taper from the rear. The tubes them selves were not turned down but had mating tapers turned on their rear area & were inserted from the breech. Later methods were to turn a stepped portion on the rear of the tubes & insert it from the front with the OD's of both tubes & breech piece matching.
My Pieper hammer double which is marked Modified Diana has the non-fretted construction & the tubes were threaded & screwed into the breech piece from the front. They only extend approximately half way through the breech piece.

Friends:
All of this sleeving v. monobloc stuff is interesting to read but bloody immaterial to the original issue as posited, i.e., why would a sleeved gun be of less "value" than an originally-barreled gun? The answer to that does NOT lie in the fact that a properly sleeved gun is less strong or safe than an original barrels. Indeed, many sleeved guns are actually more robust than the original barrels may have been.

Sleeved or monobloc, they are both two-piece assemblies. Each proven safe and mechanically reliable.

Thus, the most reasonable answer to the question of value is that the sleeved gun is simply no longer "original." Even though it may be functionally, and practically superior. Perhaps even aesthetically.

I look for this thread to go on for at least another six weeks.

Best, Kensal

Here is a Rigby from Bonhams last auction.

http://www.bonhams.com/cgi-bin/public.sh...SaleSectionNo=1

Lot No: 244S2
A 12-bore sidelock non-ejector gun by John Rigby & Co., no. 15806
The toplever and rib numbered '2' in gold, the action incorporating the Rigby-Bissell rising third-bite, patent use number 369, dipped-edge lockplates, fences carved with stylised acanthus leaves, best bold foliate-scroll engraving, well-figured stock (possibly a replacement) with leather-covered recoil-pad, lever-latch forend, the sleeved barrels (slightly loose on action) with game-rib engraved John Rigby & Co., St. James's Street, London & Dublin
Weight 6lb. 13�oz., 15in. pull (14in. stock), 29�in. barrels, approx. I.C. & 5/8 choke, 2�in. chambers, Birmingham nitro proof

Sold for �1,380 inclusive of Buyer's Premium




It is in proof. So it does not exactly fit the original question, but all the chatter about sleeved and restored, I thought this example interesting.

Pete

Hi,
This is my first post on the forum although I have been 'lurking' for a few weeks.
There is a note regarding the Rigby in Bonham's catalogue which I think could well impact on price :-
Lot Notice Please note that the stock is cracked at the hand. This gun cannot be released until it is stamped 'Sleeved' by the Birmingham Proof House. Please contact the department for further information.

Welcome and thank you. So it is out of proof.

Pete

Pete it may well be in proof but it has been known for the Proof house to mis stamp the odd gun .If it was a very good sleever and not declared as such it may have accepted as a reproof. The London proof house, for a short time in the 80's if memory serves, did not stamp sleeved on guns submitted but stamped the bore size on the tubes in front of the sleeving joint.They also marked as a reproof if the original marks were still current.

I suppose that as with many things ,your view point may depend on weather you pay for having it done ,or, your payed for doing it.I personaly have no predudice against sleeved gun ,but fitting multi chokes to a nice doublegun . Now that to me is a real good way of dropping its value .