doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Refinished/Out of Proof Brit Guns

Hi all, just was curious how much of a hit in value do Brit guns take when out of proof or refinished (bbls reblackened, sleeved, stock altered etc)? Compared to one that is all original. Say the price is 10k for a gun in original condition.

I know that there are a lot of "What if's" on this one, but just in general.

Thanks as always!

Greg

I probably would not buy a Brit gun that was out of proof. For me, a sleeved gun would take a big hit........30-40% if the job was invisible and more if you could see a line.

I would have no problem with a gun that has just been touched up with re-blacked barrels or lightly refinished stock. I also have no problem in sending them off for a bend or a leather covered pad to fit. A way too short stock or an ugly extension would also probably disqualify it for me as I would not really want to get into a restocking job.

There is a big difference between "out of proof" or "refinished" in merry England, Greg. Out of proof is against the law to sell, refinished is considered much more like maintenance there, and is completely acceptable.

I've heard arguments pro and against sleeving, and the hit a sleeved gun will take is significant. I won't buy one, period, I know a few others who fall in the same camp, and a few more who would buy for .50 on the dollar, or so.

I don't do sleeved guns, so, figure 100% of value erased on that. However, a well maintained Brit boxlock, with nicely reblacked barrels and freshened checkering should sell for at least as much as an identicle, original gun needing same. The Brits are much less weird about original finish than Americans are, and you tend to find guns that have had regular service all their lives.

Best,
Ted

Out of proof gun sales are against the law for a reason in England. Safety is the main reason. If a gun is in proof it is assumed that it should be safe. I know that a in proof gun may fail but the odds go up when a gun is out of proof.

If the gun is out of proof have it looked over by a gunsmith trained back in Great Britian or one who can evaluate the gun to see if it is worth the time and effort to make it right. Do not assume that a out of proof gun is a good deal, some out of proof guns can still be a good buy but most are money pits.

I worry more about on face and how thin are the barrels. A gun that has not been honed to death still can be unsafe if the barrels have been heavily filed when refinished. I looked at a gun, still in proof by the bore measurements, but it had one area of the barrel that was .012 which is much to thin to shoot with my hand almost over the area that was paper thin.

Back to your question. Do not buy a 10K gun that is out of proof unless it is worth a great deal more than that if in proof. If you buy a gun that would be worth 30-50K if in proof for 10K then by all means buy the gun. Then you can have it sleeved, lined or have a new set of barrels made and still be ahead of the game.

A poor sleeve job is a eye sore and the gun takes an extreme hit in value. A perfect sleeve job will still be a 20-50% discount to most buyers. Some will never even look at a sleeved gun.

Another thing to think about is the difficulty that you will encounter later selling the gun. If you pay too much for a gun it will be almost impossible to sell later. I have seen too many people buy a "name" and forget to evaluate the gun without the name when buying. That worn out Boss will not bring top dollar when you try to sell it. If you are going to spend 10K then figure the cost of inspection by a good smith to be cheap insurance.

It is illegal to sell an out of proof gun in the UK, but you can give them away, consequently an out of proof gun is avoided, unless you really know what you are doing, buying (begging?) for spares, or you are going to re-manufacture, a well done sleeved barrel set is perfectly usable, after all it has to be re-proofed, but it does devalue the gun in the region of 30%-50%, so ask yourself do I want to invest money in this project.

Good comments above. Sleeving is a big hit in price. Proof . . . important, but more so with more expensive guns.
And IMO, it depends on why the gun's no longer in proof. Chambers punched but not reproofed, I'd say that's a fairly big deal. Out of proof because of an oversized bore . . . if you're looking for a shooter (lower priced gun) and the barrels still have plenty of wall thickness, that one is less critical to me. But more important on a Purdey than on a Birmingham nonejector.

The Brits in general are not as nuts about original condition (reblue, re-CC, stock redone) than are American collectors. As Ted said, that's considered more a matter of preventive maintenance over there--which they tend to look upon, with their guns, more like we do with vehicles (and less like we do with guns, which quite often is not to take them to a gunsmith unless something is broken). If the work's been properly redone and in the British fashion, to me it shows that the previous owner took proper care of his gun.

Greg:
There are many opinions about sleeving. However, I would much rather have a properly sleeved and struck English SxS of virtually any origin than an unwieldy, overweight and graceless over-under by most any current maker... most of which are built on the monobloc principle anyway.

This is a no-win argument, but to me an E-Type Jag with a rebuilt engine still trumps an all-original Viper any day of the week.

Best, Kensal

Interesting thread this. As a Brit and having recently got a lovely Darlow 16 bore sidelock "redone" - as in reblacked barrels, rechequering cut and fully serviced and regulated - I did not think twice as to undertaking the work. The gun had not had as regular preventative maintenance as it should have done, and I wanted a gun I could both use (tough to do properly with worn chequering) but also which looked the part as it would have done when first made. The reblacking was done expertly by a very experienced barrel blacker, and although the work took time, it was done very well. I can now look forward to using the gun for years to come, and by taking care and getting it serviced internally every two years, I should be able to pass it onto my family in the future. I don't feel the work done has in any way diminished the value and in some respects, the feedback I have is that it has actually added value.

It's perfectly legal to sell an out-of-proof gun here in the US but I wouldn't touch it for (nearly) anything.

Having a new barrel fitted to a H&H (for example) by the maker might run 15-18KUSD. A second-hand H&H with original barrel might fetch 40K; with a maker's replacement barrel it might fetch 30K.

A London Best with a new barrel by the maker is a good deal in my mind - I would love to find a 1938 receiver with a 1990s barrel fitted by the maker!

Don't quite agree with the values you are putting on a sleeved gun .If a gun in the UK is worth �5,000 with good original barrels then it might be worth �4,000 with a good pair of sleeved barrels. How much is it worth with bad or scraped barrels? One hell of a lot less!