doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Ah the joys of auction

This was a 16g A Grade double barrel set that was configured with multiple gold inlays including dogs on both sideplates. The photos provided in the catalog were not particularly clear, but some who examined it discovered that several of the inlays on the sideplates appeared to have been added at some time after production. There was bleeding of the gold. When questioned the auction house brought up an "expert" who said this was due to incorrect case hardening temperatures. They maintained that this was an original gun. Experts, whom I trust, like Buck Hamlin, have said that this would not occur because of the vast difference in temperatures between the melting point of gold and case hardening. Other inlays on the frame were not similarly affected.
I would not go so far as to claim "fraud" in that that would be difficult to prove. However, despite the fact that they were notified by at least three different Lefever experts that there were anomalies in this gun that brought to serious question their claim that this was not modified they refused to reveal this.
The gun sold for $45,000.
Now, what is the responsibility of the auction house when questions have been raised? I can understand it if they would be reluctant to alter their description of a gun, which could significantly affect the price, on the basis of one "self proclaimed expert" telling them something. That could be a ploy to discourage bidding on the gun to the advantage of that "expert". On the other hand, when they have been made aware of questions by multiple "experts" do they have any obligation to reveal that to bidders who are less knowledgable? Perhaps the buyer was aware of the issues and still thought the gun was worth that. After all, it was otherwise a rather unique high grade Lefever (we think).
The point here being that it is all "caveat emptor", Let the buyer beware. Whether it is a big famous auction house, or something held in somebody's back yard, I wouldn't depend on the autioneer's description as gospel. However, in the days of internet auctions with Proxy Bidding one must have confidence in the auction house description or depend on an expert who has examined the gun. What recourse would I have had if I had bid those kind of dollars on a gun, trusting their description, that upon receipt was found to be significantly altered?

I saw a show about an auction of Star Trek memorabilia at Christies.

It looked like a raucus good time and whenever something went for a lot more than expected the crowed cheered.

Is it all decorum and tight collars at the London gun auctions?

Saw that show too, the model of the second "Enterpise" hammered at $500K, half a million! I wonder how many millions the model from the original series would have brought, it hangs in the gift shop of the Smithsonian.

The Christies auction took place in NYC but it seemed a disproportionate number of the high bidders were from the UK. One of the larger collections in private hands is in London.

DrBob as you say, it's opinion, and if you are paying $45K for a gun you better get more than one. Dripping gold off a CCH job sounds like it was re-hardenend but hey I'm no expert.

Bush, no it's not all tight collars, far from it, other than for the Holt's boys themselves...dare I say rather Spiv looking...ahem.

The way most of the UK auctions work is to have a few days of viewing before the sale itself. Holts generally tend to have Tues, Wed and then Thursday mornings to allow you to view literally everything on sale - Gavin Gardiners is the same. It means you can spend effectively as long as you like viewing the lots, without hassle, and this includes the very best items on sale which is a treat in anyones book. One of my favourite things is to walk around the edges of the viewing hall where there are many cased side-by-sides; you don't know what you are going to find inside until you open the lid

I have not been to the auction day itself, but you can now bid/watch the Holts auction online which is always interesting in itself.

Yes CBL it is well laid out for sure and agree around the edges can be fun. I actually won my bid from my hospital bed online...slightly concerning because of the transient delay that can occur when bidding online and the time it takes to register their end...however I did manage to win...just means no one else wanted the gun really :S

Cheers
t

Dr. Bob-

I don't think they misrepresented it. They never called the inlays original.

The auction house knew there were questions about the gun and they had a reputable person look at it. They clearly stated his opinion.

This was the note the auction house posted next to the gun at the auction:

http://www.dogsanddoubles.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/Lefever_EX.jpg

Obviously, at least two people were satisfied by what they saw.

Most of the gun's detractors never saw it for themselves, either.

BTW: I actually saw that Lefever for myself. Here's a link to one of the gold inlays on it. Take a look.

http://www.dogsanddoubles.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/Lef_2.jpg


Thanks

OWD

Yes definate bleed into the surrounding engraving work.
Cheers
T

Gun auctions are wonderful . Where else does the trade dump all the junk they cant sell ,or dare not sell in there shops??

Dr Bob, A few weeks before The auction I spent over an hour with the 16, had a 10, and 20 power glass. Both dogs on each side and the birds at the hinges had runs similar to the picture shown on this post.I brought it to their attention, and we saw that the dogs head in the forend also ran, but only at the bottom of it's neck. The pigeon in the top lever may have a little at it's bottom or it could have been its feet.I also believed that the wood was redone and most likely the metal, as their was some crud under the left side of the top lever that missed being cleaned.Another concern was the serial # on the second set of barrels was very thin and did not match my Ithaca ones, but looked very similar to one I had done a couple of years ago,ditto for the A on the water table.I decided not to bid even though I believe that it was a very rare A grade quality gun. The auction house later posted the info about the auras and guaranteed that the gun was original.They said they had their expert look at the gun and he advised that the inlays were original. I asked if it was the consignors expert, and they said no,it was theirs.You know about the info that was passed around well before the auction that said a world class engraver had inspected the engraving and said it was the finest engraving he had seen on an American gun.Look closely at the dogs shoulder on the previous post there are some lines there for shading that are in my opinion looked recent, and very poorly done. I don't know if the auction house could have done any more. To me there are a few options as to what happened,I just don't believe that the gun could have left the factory in that condition. THE MAIN REASON FOR THIS POST IS THAT IN MY OPINION THE GUN WAS WORTH MORE IF IT DIDN'T HAVE THE UNUSUAL GOLD INLAYS, AND THE QUESTIONS ON HOW THEY GOT THERE! Again just my opinion. sfq