doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Parker Chamber length

I own Parker #154300, a 12 ga VH on a #2 frame.

The gun, while used, looks untouched as far as screws and other clues to originality.

The gun fits surprisingly well, albeit a bit short in LOP @ 14-14" but w/ 30" bbls and F&F chokes it would be a waterfowl affair. With a heavy coat it would fit just about right.

I just measured the chamber length for the first time and came away with 2-11/16". I would have thought 2-1/2" would have been right.

Seem right or has it been messed with?

Thanks, Rob

I have a #2 frame, 12 gauge,VH,with chambers that measure 2-5/8"
Most all of my 12 gauge Parkers measure 2-5/8". I have one that is 2-3/4". None at 2-1/2"

From the Parker Gun Collectors Forum:
http://www.parkergun.org/forums/forum1/2164.html

Parker "borrowed" English chamber measurements (for paper shells) and manufactured 12ga and 16 ga 2 1/2" chambers until about 1895...then the 12 ga went to and continued with 2 5/8"chambers (16ga went mostly to 2 9/16" ) for a long period...possibly until near the end of regular Parker production...about 1934. By 1930 most (but not all) shotshell and gun manufacturers agreed to 2 3/4" chambers for field and target guns. As far as I can determine, 2 5/8" shells were manufactured at least until 1940. The 1945 Stoegers Shooters Bible lists Xpert and Xpert Super Skeet loads, Ranger Field loads, and Leader Staynless loads as being available in 2 5/8" 1 1/8oz. By that time all Super-X, Super Speed, Leader Super Speed, Ranger Brush Loads, etc were 2 3/4" 1 1/4oz. Original chamber length is a strong clue as to the correct MAXIMUM shot load.

I don't know what to make of the 1920 "2 1/2" Standard Shotgun Chambers drawing" (p519 TPS). Some information is obviously missing. In original 12ga chambered guns (frame size #2 and smaller), a 12ga .798 chamber gauge will stop most commonly at either 2 5/8" or 2 3/4". Why does a .798 gauge not stop at 2 1/2" as depicted in the drawing? The difference due to chamber taper is of course, negligible, but why would Parker make a "shop drawing" and not use it? Why was this 2 1/2 inch "standard" adopted in 1920 when Trap Guns were standardized at 2 3/4 inch chambers much earlier? Is there documented evidence to validate the "better gas seal" claim? Is there "short chamber" patent?

In the recently published book "The Parker Story" the Remington vintage specification sheets on pages 164 to 169 call for a chamber 1/8-inch shorter than the shell for which it is intended. I have a 1930-vintage VH-grade 0-frame 20-gauge and its chambers are 2 3/8 inches intended for the old 2 1/2 inch shells, eight years after the 20-gauge Super-X shell was introduced in a 2 3/4 inch case!!


I had a 1922 20g Trojan with 2 3/8" chambers and a 1924 12g Trojan with 2 1/2" chambers and so marked when proofed in England at some point.

I do not worry much about actual shell length, with the two following caveats;
#1 The actul load inside the shell should be compatable with what the gun was intended to use. This lets out modern SAAMI spec shells in pre 20's era guns regardless of chamber length, even 2 3/4" ones.
#2 The end of the loaded shell should not enter the forcing cone. There should be a slight clearence between the end of shell & beginning of cone to allow the crimp to start opening normally.
A fold crimp shell of same fired length will of course have a shorter "Loaded" length than will a roll crimped one. That 2 3/8" 20ga chamber would thus be "Pushing the Limit" even for a fold crimp 2 3/4" shell, but a definate "NoNo" for a 2 3/4" roll crimp shell, even in both cases considering the load itself is proper.
You seldom see this mentioned but if the crimp, prior to opening, enters the cone the constriction results in a "Stronger" crimp. Crimp strength affects pressure.

I have a 12 ga DH from 1889 with 2-7/8" chambers which are original. The only Pakers I have owned with 2-1/2" chambers have been 16's.

Keith Kearcher can fix your problem for 45 per side. With a 2 frame shooter there is no reason not to streach the chambers and forceing cones. I used to shoot 2 bags of magnum 4's one and one quarter of an ounce at a time at ducks every season thru my 2 frame Parker and it is tight as new. A 2 frame Parker is strong!
bill

Chamber depth is considered to be the joint between the chamber body itself and the forcing cone, which reduces down to bore diameter. This is loosely based on the length of the "Fired" shell. Today, theoretically when the crimp opens on the shell being fired the end would land at the junction of the chamber and cone. Prior to WW-II many companies had the practice of holding the chamber about 1/8 inch shorter then the shell for which it was intended. Fly in the ointment is nominal measurements often differ from actual ones in both chambers and shells. A very good method I have found of measuring chambers without much outlay of cash, and is quite accurate enough for virtually any situation, is a common 6" flexible machinist's scale which you likely have. Hold the barrels with muzzles toward a light source, not necessarily a concentrated one a window is great, while looking into the breech and the cone will be thrown in a shadow. May have to move the barrels around a little until it is distinct. While still looking into the chamber simply slide the scale in until you observe the end coming flush with the shadow line & mark position of breech end with your thumb. Remove and read the scale. I usually repeat this a few times to insure I am getting a consistent reading, but you will be amazed how accurate this can be done. While I own a Galazan chamber gauge, I use this more often than not. The chamber body itself has a taper of about .005" per inch. Sometimes chambers were cut with slightly worn reamers giving a slight undersize chamber. As you can readily see if the chamber should be .001" under gauge size at the end this would give a false length reading of about .200" with a gauge. The machinist’s scale method can be more accurate.

There is a good body of evidence that back in the day at least at Parker Bros. and A.H. Fox Gun Co. chambers were held about 1/8 inch shorter than the shells for which they were intended. In the recently published book "The Parker Story" the Remington vintage specification sheets on pages 164 to 169 call for a chamber 1/8-inch shorter than the shell for which it is intended. I'm in my 41st season of shooting 2 3/4 inch shells in a 2 5/8 inch chambered 1914-vintage 12-gauge Fox A-grade.

"the 12 ga went to and continued with 2 5/8"chambers (16ga went mostly to 2 9/16" ) for a long period...possibly until near the end of regular Parker production...about 1934. By 1930 most (but not all) shotshell and gun manufacturers agreed to 2 3/4" chambers for field and target guns. As far as I can determine, 2 5/8" shells were manufactured at least until 1940. The 1945 Stoegers Shooters Bible lists Xpert and Xpert Super Skeet loads, Ranger Field loads, and Leader Staynless loads as being available in 2 5/8" 1 1/8oz. By that time all Super-X, Super Speed, Leader Super Speed, Ranger Brush Loads, etc were 2 3/4" 1 1/4oz. Original chamber length is a strong clue as to the correct MAXIMUM shot load. "


Am I to assume that 1-1/4oz. loads are not to be used but 1-1/8 is OK?

Rob: that's your decision. This is what Sherman Bell thinks.

The Winter 2001 Double Gun Journal has the article by Sherman Bell called "Finding Out for Myself" Part V "Long Shells in Short Chambers".

After extensive testing carried out in a very professional manner he concludes:

"With loads that are sensible in a light 21/2 inch gun, we see no dangerous pressure levels produced. I see no reason, related to safety, to modify an original 2 1/2 inch chambered gun to shoot 2 3/4 shells, If The 2 3/4 Inch Load You Intend To Use Would Develop Pressure That Is Safe In That Gun, When Fired In A Standard Chamber!

Certainly a #2 frame Parker action is strong, but I'd be more concerned about the effect of recoil on the maybe 80 year old wood.

2 3/4" chambers were cut in many 12ga guns long prior to 1935 & well prior to the Super X, Express etc class of shells. My 1889 Lefever Arms Co catalog lists 1¼oz loads as being suitable for 12 ga guns with those of 7-8lbs handling 3-3½ drams of powder, while those of 8-9lbs wt can use 4-4½ drams of powder, this all black powder of course. The 1913 catalog gives loads for several smokeless powders with 1¼oz of shot & charges up to 3½ drams equivelent.
These were "Not" powder puff loads, but "Remember" guns DO NOT grow stronger with age.
I suspect that many of the makers had calls for their heavier guns to be used for waterfowling, trap or live pigeon shooting to be cut with 2 3/4" chambers while most of their field guns went out with the 2 5/8" standard. 2 3/4" chambers are simply not that uncommon in these old guns & I don't think they have all been rechambered. L C Smith chamber drawings dated Dec 21, 1907 incidently list the 10ga @ 2 7/8", 12ga @ 2 3/4", 16ga @ 2 9/16" & 20ga @ 2 1/2". The Super X loadings brought out in the 20's & the later Super 10 were new only in loads, not in the size of their shells.
The matter of shells longer than their chambers was settled in England with the introduction of the fold crimp. I believe that essentially all shells loaded with a fold crimp intended for the 2½" chambered British game gun have been put up in hulls longer than the chamber. This took place probably before Bell was born. Somehow he simply seemed to be unable to understand what he read. I have no qualms with people doing testing for themselves, but he mis-quoted Burrard so bad it was simply pitiful. What he actually did was re-confirm data at least 55-60 yrs old.