doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com It followed me home...from the web. What is it??

Kirk Merrington in Kerrville, TX http://kirkmerrington.net/
is a British gun, and barrel, specialist and could help with both origin and safe use assessment but I'm not aware of anyone in the US independently 'proving' brls.

If Kirk sez it is OK, it is OK. No proofing done here in USA. I doubt there are any issues with your gun that would require proof firing. You do always have the option to send it to the UK for proof - think about $500 turn key. You are close enought to Kirk that this should be no problem. BTW - as i understand it, KM was trained as a barrel maker at Churchill.

Let me tell, now, what I may know about this gun.
There were many, many small custom gun makers in Japan before WW2. Most were very fine and worked their magic much like the makers in Germany and England. There were outsources for specialized parts such as locks, ect.
Most were closed during the war and only the major factories survived.
The new Japanese Gov't ordered many restrictive laws that forced the sporting guns out of shooters hands and into the used racks of the remaining retailers. Most traded many guns for one that they could afford to license. This left a great many fine guns languishing.
The Gov't decided that even though the used guns could not be sold in Japan, it would be allowed that they be exported. They applied a very long number to the water table and off they went for pennies on the dollar.
Your gun, like one of mine (almost twins but for the engraving) looks very much like a Richards. When we took it apart to study, we found that the innards were far better made and finished than the garden variety Richards. That's saying a lot !!!!
Mine is without any marks at all and I have surmised that this is usual with these custom shop guns. It is a fabulous shooter and is often mistaken for a moderately high grade Richards. The plain stock (this is usual for these guns) gives it away as does the lack of a name on the gun.
Some have stated that these were fake copies of Richards. I think NOT. These gun makers simply used a beautiful design and went from there.
I have removed the stock from mine and plan to make it look more in keeping with the fine quality of the rest of the gun.
Mine is shot with Winney AAs or RSTs when I can get them.
I would be cautious about doing anything that lowers the value of your gun. More and more is being found about the custom gun production in pre-war Japan and there is an avid collecting fraternity. Most are on the West Coast and there is where this (one of two I own) came from.I paid $1200 for mine and think that you have a great bargain.After all---It is NOT the name that makes a fine shotgun. Astute men will judge the gun for its self.
Now that I have had time to think, I agree that the Birmingham stamp may be a fake. A dealer trying to assure that it is thought to be a back door Richards.Shame if this be so, for the gun is likely to be a very fine shotgun in its own right.
Hope this is helpful.
Best,
John

John, thanks for the information. I was not aware that there were that many of them produced or exactly what the story behind them was. It sounds like I should avoid butchering it with choke tubes and shoot it as is (after a gun smith inspection).

Do you know of any collector sites for these guns on the web?

I appreciate all of the information

SSSSSHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!
We should not let too many know about these fine shooters. Think what has happened to the Lindners !!!!!!!
I have not heard from him in quite a while, but Ben Loving of Loving Doubles, out in Calif. knew a few collectors and guys that had more than passing knowledge.
Maybe Ivory Beads could steer you to someone.
Keep us posted if you pursue this and find info. Could be the next Cinderella story.
Best,
John

In the late '90s I was in Japan and was able to particpate in a used gun sale to American servicemen and DoD civilians on the island of Okinawa. A dealer from mainland Japan brought down approx 100 long guns, 95% of which were shotguns, and about half of those doubles. All were used but most were in excellent shape. Even though I came out poorly in the drawing for the order of purchase, I still walked away with an 80's vintage Miroku O/U trap gun and 70's vintage Nikko O/U for grand total of $332.

What I missed out on was being able to purchase one of the five or 6 SxS in the group. Without knowking any better I would have guessed these were nice vintage brummie boxlocks. I did not recongize any of the names - the one that comes to mind was Kawaguchi. Fit and finish was excellent and it was a 20 gauge to boot. I think it went for $300 or so. I departed the island island before the next sale, but I was left with a high regard for the quality of these gun - wiash I could have picked one up, especially at those prices.

Ken

*Arte Johnson's voice*
Verrrrry interesting.

Time to defend my thinking.
I have received two emails questioning my statement that these guns were not fake Westley Richards guns.
Here goes.
The Japanese have an ancient history in armament making. SKB is the second longest continuing armaments producer in the world, following Beretta by some fifty years.
As the Anson and Deeley boxlock is and was recognized, by most, as the finest boxlock design,of that time, it logically follows that these makers would follow the rest of the world's makers in using it as a base.
These fellows were not flighty businessmen either. As astute as others, they went with the flow.
The difference must be that they were independent, thus the need to produce quality to remain in business. Money talked then as now and if a product were not of a stated quality, then out of business went the inferior maker.
As we know, it is in the Japanese psyche to be self effacing. It would be unseemly to put ones name on a gun just as it would be to put it on any other product that was bespoke.
Having seen the guts of my two, I can attest that they are not the same as a Richards. Therefore, think that they were not knockoffs.
Best,
John

"Fake" is when someone tries to make you think a thing is something else, usually something more valuable. I agree with JM, a case could be made for calling these guns copies, but not "fakes." Belgian guns sometimes resorted to "sortalike" names to fool the unwary or ignorant. Seems that the Japanese just made the best gun they could and let patents and tradition fall where they may.

It does seem interesting that many of the English gun makers were using the same action and dressing it up in different ways, we call those best guns. But our first reaction to the same thing from a Japanese maker is "its a knock-off".

Of course they probably didn't import the raw forgings from Birmingham....

I'm snowed in today, so I may get cheeky...
Any break from law school is a good break...