doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com A legal question about FFL shippment and transfer

Jim is 100 % correct !

Could anyone that thinks a drivers license is a legal requirment in the acquistion section of the bound book please post a BATF link?????

1)What would a copy of a D/L prove if that person is not in front of you?

2)How many of the same dealers would not buy (@ 50% value) a DHE 20 (or any gun they can make quick $$) from a widow at gun show who did not have a D/L ????

I have to show ID at the local supermarket to buy beer. I'm 40. My DAD has to show ID to buy beer there. It's not law that they have to check ID, but it's law that they can't sell to underage people...they tried ID'ing at the cashiers discretion and that didn't work. Then they tried ID'ing anyone who appeared under 30 (I took that one as a compliment)...that didn't work either. So now they just force their cashiers to ID everyone, becasue it's their business and livelihood on the line. I'm ok with that.
As far as I can tell, those requirements are not law--so what? People always get their knickers in a twist about FFL's requireing a gun to be shipped FROM another FFL and other stuff like this AT THEIR DISCRETION, but it's so much horsedookey. If a businessman wants to run his business a certain way, that's not for any of us to decide--it's his ass on the line, not mine. I am free to do business with him or not. Frankly, it is a pain in the ass, but it makes perfect sense for a business owner to cover his own ass. Would you prefer someone else (and you know who that'll be) tell you how you have to run your business?

Gee Dave, you sound like you would be a good customer to deal with. Have any of you folks who just can not get past the simple request for a copy of your ID ever been through an ATF audit? When you have the ATF in your shop, you do not tell them how the law works, they tell you. Same situation when you get pulled over for a traffic violation, if you start lecturing a cop about the law and your rights you rarely win. Having very organized books helps and a photo copy of a ID is not that much to ask. Just my view as someone who has been through an audit.
Steve

Thankyou Dave Furman, well put.
It would be appropriate if everyone who has posted above would indicate either -I have a dealer FFL and have been audited by the ATF. or I am not a dealer and have never been audited.
The following are my observations as an audited dealer. I am currently on a two year audit cycle.
1.Frequency of audit cycle is based on the number of transfers you report when renewing licence. The more $25 transfers you do the more frequenly you get audited.
2. An Audit takes @ 8 hrs
3. $25 covers 22.8 minutes of my time at the bench doing repairs. I cant discuss with you, fax ffl and receive goods,log in, call you, wait while you inspect goods, perform NICS check.Turn over gun , Log out and File the 4473 in 22.8 minutes.
4. Under current law the BATFE only have two options , written warning or revocation of licence, no system for varying scale non-compliance fines.
5 Under law I am required to respond within 24 hours to a request for a trace on a firearm.
6 I am forbidden to engage in interstate commerce in stolen property.
So why the requirement that that I get a drivers licence or FFL?
In the event that any of the following occur some time , say 6 months after the transfer I will be required to back trace a gun through my books.This will either involve a visit by Federal Agent or sub-peona.
A. The gun turns out to have been previously stolen.
B. Is used in the commission of a crime.
C. The gun fails causing Injury and is subject to litigation.
As a result of my $25 tranfsfer I will be able to answer either
Gun was received on Behalf of XXXXXX name and date From Drivers Licence XYZ heres a copy.Name on carton matched the DL.Shipped Fedex/ UPS/ USPS and thats the end of it.
-or-
I don't know, some guy named Joe out East somewhere.

I have decided to require either an FFL or Drivers Licence on the very few Out of state 3rd party transfers I do. You have the option to get a store front, licence and do it your way or find some one who runs their business in accordance with your guidelines/preference.

Again,
please show me where is says a D/L is required by the BATF?
The approved bound book asks for Name and Address (or FFL) NOT a D/L (which ,again shows nothing unless that person ins in front of you!)in the acquisition section.

As far as a dealer asking for "other criteria" above and beyond the BATF regs, they can do what ever they want.

Require a Drivers license,FBI backround check,SAT scores,blood and urine sample for drug testing, that the firearm be be wrapped in C Notes for compensation to open the box! Fine with me,then those involved can decide if they want to move forward!!!
That must be determined BEFORE the "contract" to do the transfer takes place !!!!!!! NOT after like the one in this thread.

BTW I am a good person to do business with(cash buyer-that does not require proof of someones(might be the seller-maybe not) driving ability in another state),and yes I have been through a couple audit's on the 01 FFL and do hold a 03 FFL.


so I guess a blind widow (with no D/L) would not be able to sell her husbands Parker's to some dealers?

I do not have a dealers FFL, I do have a C&R but that has no bearing here. I have had a visit by the BATF, but he made an appointment, showed up on time, stayed about 20 min. and was a perfect gentleman.

When I sell a gun out of state I have no problem supplying the receiving FFL with my name, address and phone number. I will not give out my drivers license, SS#, passport photo or library card. Sending that info across the country is inviting identity theft. Not everyone who works at an FFL is as scrupulous as the gentlemen who frequent this BBS.

Requiring a drivers license is not mandated but rather a personal choice and I feel it's falling right into the hands of those who are trying to curb 2 Amendment rights, much the same as sellers who will not sell to certain states.

I do believe that a receiving FFL has the right to run his business anyway he wants to. I also have the right not to agree. Lastly, get this all cleared up before committing to buying a gun. Ask the seller if he minds sending his ID. If he does, find another seller or find another FFL.

BTW, here in NY the going rate for a transfer is $75, one or two guys will do it for $50 and I don't know anyone doing it for $20 in the last 10 years.

I have no issue with sending a photo ID if that makes the FFL feel comfortable. But as Dave K has stated I see no benefit from it.
Mark my word, some uniformed FFL holder is going to start asking for SS#'s before long and this converation will appear again. IMO you never give the government more information than is required. And by the way, my FFL does transfers for me for no charge. Just one of the benefits of a 30 year relationship.

Hey guys,many here are missing the point. Whether it's a legal requirement for photo id is irrelevent. Receiving FFL can set his own requirements that are over and above the ATF&E requirement. If the receiving FFL wants photo id from the private shipper, that's what he wants. If private guy wants to ship a gun to that FFL he has to comply. If that doesn't suit the private shipper then he needs to find someone else. End of story.

I am a member of the Scottsdale Gun Club. The charge for a transfer is $20 for members or $45 for non members. I help out in the gunsmithing department so any transfer is at no cost to me which is the same as it is for employees.
I believe I stated earlier that I don't have a problem providing a copy of my drivers* license even though it's not required as Dave K has pointed out.
However I would draw the line at providing my SSN.
Jim

Bottom line. If the legal experts want to get their own FFL it's A-Ok with me. In the meantime I'll run my 35+ year business in my best interests.

Thanks for your explanation Hugh, but the responses here are exactly why I rarely do transfers. Some don't care about your risks, your time or your economic viability...

This comes up every so often with the same rants, including mine, and the same results. I've learned my lesson.
Best,
Steve