doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Stock for Syracuse Arms "The Syracuse"

CZ: The folks at DGJ asked if they could combine the other research concerning only the company and people involved (they could not alot any more pages) and I agreed, as I knew and respected the researcher; but the result was to diminish my work, so I was not happy with the end result. Although I don't recall the ad to which you refer, it seems that the vast majority of SAC ads and catalogs I've seen show artist depictions of guns as opposed to pics of actual guns. But later catalogs did use depictions of actual guns to include serial numbers in a few instances, and I've located the actual D Grade gun that was featured in the 1903 and 1904 catalog. I've also located what I believe to be the actual SAC prototype gun featured in early City of Syracuse directory ads. At any rate, if you go to eBay and review Item #90036871024 you will see an ad for a late model Grade 3 SAC gun. Late Model Grade 3 guns look almost identical to Grade A guns, and differ in appearance a great deal from early Grade 3's because of the extra stock treatment given later Grade 3's.
As to engraving, some Grade 3 guns feature deeply cut engraving and others don't; the best engraved Grade 3 I've seen was a factory presentation Grade 3 presented to shooter H.D. Kirkover in June, 1900, the engraving cuts on this gun were extremely well executed.
If you find a twenty bore with the engraving you describe, you will have found an "A-1 Special Trap Grade"; I can count the A-1's I've found on one hand, and only one of those was a 20-bore (which now resides in NJ). You may look a long time and never find an example; but the one I saw was not nearly the best engraved A-1 out of the few examples I've seen.
I enjoy finding unusual SAC guns, and the last Grade B SAC gun I found was one such piece. It is a 1901 vintage "second model" B Grade that is is terrible need of restoration; but later Grade B guns feature a dog on each side of the frame, whereas early Grade B guns were fully engraved with line, scroll, and fancy border work. This example was special ordered with the dog on the left side of the frame pointing back towards the shooter, as opposed to the normal position of pointing towards the muzzles. It was also ordered without an ebony fore end tip (only such example I've seen), although the fore end tip wood itself is shaped as per standard. This gun also has one other very very unusual/"one off" feature; it's pistol grip features the standard Grade B "S" carved treatment, but the owner of this gun ordered his PG capped so that it featured a bakelite cap carved and fitted to the "S" shaped PG contour.

CZ,
Where can I find info the self adjusting mechanism you mention. I've had my SAC Grade 0 to bits and didn't notice anything. Perhaps I missed it or the lower grades didn't have it? Mine is very slightly loose.
Phil

Philbert, Aug 2006 DGJ has all the hyperbole about self regulation, and, "guaranteed to never shoot lose with nitro loads" (I assume nitro loads of the time). Also the adverts with the Grade 3 stock differences I noticed.
I will ferret out what Hollenbeck's ideas were after I reverse engineer the locking mechanism. There must be something that draws the barrels to breech, probably the top lever spring, but maybe the unusual cocking arm arrangements (until they wear from disassembly). We'll see. It's a good case for gun nuts to explore. The crosspin is certainly not unique in diameter, nor is the hook per se. It might be the broad radius/angle at the base of the breech, with H feeling the angle and bearing surface provided some benefit. The standing breech watertable intersection is not a round corner like Scott introduced/invented, but rather a broad flat. Providing tangential bearing.
Tinkering and learning about old things is fun. Lots of fertile mechanical minds back then. And all blank paper for them to explore.

TopGun, your articles got me interested in these guns.

Oh, and on the 20, Well, the fun is in the searching once you know what you are looking at. I would feel no less compelled should I find the Plovered 20 in a degraded condition, than Terry L. did over the fallen Optimus.

Thanks, CZ. I hadn't thought about the cocking arms possibly being used to offset hinge pin/hook wear. Interesting idea. Have you seen how the mainsprings are positioned. They're a real bugger to get back in. I ended up using a three clamps; two to hold the springs in place and one to "slide" the cover plate back in place. I enjoy tinkering as well. I agree with your fertile minds comment. I think with the proliferation of electronics we're losing the "art" and "elegance" of a well executed mechanical design.
Phil

Guys
It's been a long time since I conducted all that research and I'm too lazy to pull out my files; but I honestly don't recall a lot of "hyperbole about self regulation". I'm not a gifted gun mechanic like you guys; but to my knowledge the only self-adjusting wear mechanism in the entire gun design is the single bit top bolt incorporated into the opening lever that intersects a slot in the rib extension and designed to wear right to left as the gun is used. This device, and rib extension, was modified in 1902 to increase bearing surfaces at the point of bolting and create a stronger bolt; but that's it, and the cocking rods do nothing other than cock the hammers when barrels are lowered. SAC claimed that the wider barrel lug allowed for less wear on the hinge pin; and I'm sure that is true, but I've also seen SAC guns that required hinge pin work to put the barrels back on face. Occasionally one will find an example with the bolt broken off the top lever; but I've seen more examples with broken rib extensions (all were second and third models). How that might happen, I have no idea; but it has happened to me personally. I was bunny hunting one afternoon when the dogs pushed pushed a cottontail my way; I rolled the bunny with a 1901 AE model SAC, and when I opened the gun to reload, something hit my boot. I didn't think anything of it until I closed the gun and it flopped open again. At that point I noticed the bottom portion of the rib extension was missing. I scrambled around amongst the weeds and found the missing piece; then noted it was broken in such a fashion whereby it could be put back and remain in place. I then carefully closed the gun and noticed it remained tightly locked; so I then plugged both tubes with #6's and hunted the balance of the day with no problems, being very careful not to lose the broken piece whenever I opened the gun.
Good luck on finding that 20-bore; the "hunt" for that elusive model is actually the most enjoyable portion of the entire process.

After seeing Topgun's last post, thought to share with you my experience w/a graded Krupp fluid steel bbl'd 12 I have. It became a 'self-opener' after shooting helice & clay targets w/it for some time. Nothing seriously high pressure or 'hot' was ever shot in it by me, lower pressure 1oz reloads for the most part and certianly a number of normal pressue 2&3/4dr. target loads from time to time as well. Can't vouch for what it was fed in the many decades before I acquired it, but it was still locking up tight though it showed some almost not detectable minor face issues when I first acquired it, i.e., holding it by the bbls w/forearm off and doing the side to side shake routine. You almost couldn't feel any play at all, but there was just a tiny bit. As soon as the self opening started I sent it to a qualified smith to be dealt with at his leisure. It is now fitted with a new hinge pin and several other parts were fabricated from scratch to get it all back like it really needed to be. It will get nothing but low pressure 1oz. loads from this point forward, for sure. Its old metal in these old guns and that's that, even a high pressure prooved gun from 1900 had softer/milder steel in its action when compared to today's standards & so if you are going to shoot them a lot eventually there will be wear. Also, I do not wish to go to the expense of having to replace its nice stock and even though mechanically it is now technically ready for another hundred years of shooting, the headstock wood is likely not up to any excessive pounding, something that should always be taken into consideration and all too often is not. It is a fun gun to shoot & has the Hollenbeck 'switch' in its forearm. Whether or not it was worth the expense to put it back on face and do the other work was set aside for the fun factor and the fact you don't see them on every corner.

Jack's Damascus is a really nice example. Perhaps he'd can be talked into posting its pic for us.

Thanks TW for the reminder, as I suppose I should have disclosed ammo particulars; I was using one-ounce hand-loads powered by Unique powder and loaded to approximately 8,000PSI. My gun was also fitted with Krupp tubes, but the rib extension is a separate piece of tool steel; this gun had been fired thousands of times prior to my ownership, and I'm sure the metal in that area was fatigued. I've never experienced a major problem with any other SAC gun; and the rib extension on that set of barrels have since been repaired so that it is returned to service.
By the way, the auto-ejector mechanism; and also the unique Syracuse "ejector on/off" device were the brainchild of George A. Horne; and I believe that Mr. Hollenbeck was busy organizing the Hollenbeck Gun Company when the on/off device first went into production.
Finally, as one can see I like to talk about SAC guns, and have shared a lot of unnecessary information in the process; for which I apologize. I don't understand the picture posting process here; but if anyone is interested in seeing pics of Hammerjack's Grade D Hollenbeck, I have that DGJ article with pics in a PDF file and can forward a copy to anyone provided they PM me with a direct email address.

TG-The hyperbole was not yours. It was in the support documents published with the articles. SAC's hyperbole.

I'd like to read your article, pm sent.

Tom's SAC articles begin with the Spring 2003 Issue of DGJ.

CB

Thank you, Topgun, for setting it straight on the selector's origin. I knew that once, but only because of your diligent research & interest. I'm just a shooter, sometimes not even a good one, but I sure enjoy it. God willing, that will continue.

Best regards, tw