doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com What causes a double gun to go off face?

Everyone is surely welcome to think whatever they want. However, don't completely dismiss the possibility that our friend MMC could have been wrong. One of his last writings claimed that choke is unnecessary, a rather obvious monthly column filling, piece of silliness.
The only way to prove it would be to take two identical guns, always closing one by the thumb sneaking method and always closing the other by the normal, factory recommended way, shoot a few hundred thousand rounds, over a 100 years or so, always keeping both clean and freshly lubed, and see which one gets loose first. I'm happy to take the recommendation of most, if not all, of the manufacturers. That is, to close it (not slam it) respectfully, with your thumb off the lever, allowing the bolt to seat properly.

Always a fun topic which probably never changes anyone's mind.

P.S. Just re-watched an excellent tape called "Wingshooting", featuring MMC and the late Jack Mitchell. Michael was shooting a Beretta O/U. He closed the gun 50 times, never once holding the lever. In nearly every closing, he closed it with his trigger hand on the butt, a practice he learned from Jack Mitchell, a wonderful instructor.
So much for the value of what he wrote.

As far as how to close a gun, I figured you guys would have that worked out by now. I suggest that everyone with a dog in this hunt come to the Southern Side by Side with a paint ball gun. I'll have all of you over to Beaver Pond and you can have a paint ball fight over the whole 300 acres. The loosers will buy the beer and swear to spend the rest of their lives closing their guns as dictated by the winners.

Pod: The problem is that the shoulder on the rounds you've fire formed is now pushed back. They could be fired in the gun with the rim spaced out but it's likley they'll still seperate leaving most of the case in the chamber.

This was s common problem with match shooters and M14 rifles when I was shooting. Reloaders pushed the shoulder back to make sure the round would chamber but the case would seperate after a few firings, might not be as bad with a break action gun though.

Next time you fire form cases, slowly adjust the sizing down until the rifle will just close on the case. you'll then be headspacing on the shoulder.

Dick

thank you ill try this method ill let you know how i make out.the gun is out having some engraving touched up right now. im in the process of a complete restoration of this dbl rifle again thank you. best regards bob

dick: thank you for your comments. as far as closing a sxs i let it close itself with little effort. best regards bob

Keith, Have a look at a clay gun owned by a "slammer" and you will see damage to the face of both barrel and breech that resembles pitting.Seen Browning's,Beretta's Perrazi's all the same This is wear. Thus the bolt dose not lock down proporly so the gun "springs" on each firing,thus increasing wear rate. If the gun then has the bite increased by what ever method you like with out ensuring the correct clearances on the wings etc[some new guns dont have this either] you create more trouble.

Dont want to labour the point Folks , but I do this for a living, 40 hours a week. I dont write books, I rebuild and repair double guns and have done for over 40 years so I think I speak with some knowlage of the subject.

If one were to take the time to read the entire McIntosh article--or at least that part focusing on chokes--one would find that he is addressing UPLAND HUNTERS in particular, as in: "For upland hunters, choke now is more bane than boon." When you consider the research done by Tom Roster in his CONSEP workshops, it's hard to disagree with that point--for the MAJORITY of upland hunters. Roster found that about 2/3 of the shooters he tested (something like 20,000 total) could not hit half the crossing clay targets at 20 yards. If you don't shoot any better than that, any choke at all is a hindrance rather than a help. And if you haven't looked at a cylinder patter on paper, at 25-30 yards using modern shells, you'll likely be surprised by what you see. Certainly, choke can be of value to hunters who are capable of hitting birds reliably at 40 yards or more. But Roster's tests showed that such individuals are a very small minority.

As for closing a shotgun with one's trigger hand on the butt . . . I've heard of that before, but I don't think I've ever actually seen anyone do it. Even at fairly large sxs shoots . . . although I'll have to remember to watch closer in the future. I tried it with a few of my guns. Works quite well with an old Parker, which opens and closes very easily anyhow. Not so well with guns that "resist" closing a bit more. Maybe, if one were to get used to the different application of leverage . . .

I think they made the point, somewhere, that the advantage(possible) of closing the gun butt first keeps the muzzle down and under better control than closing it by moving the muzzle up and possibly around. I tried it too, and found it rather awkward. In any case, my real point is that while the gun was closed respectfully, there was NO lever riding involved. I do not understand why lever riders insist on calling anything else "slamming"? I don't slam guns, car doors, house doors or anything else closed. They all close more securely if their spring-loaded bolts are allowed to close as intended. I don't hold the top levers or the doorknobs, unless mi esposa is sleeping. I've never had a gun or a door go off face at my hands.

I haven't purchased any real vintage guns but would like too in near future. Is it normal for them to be ever so slightly loose?

Only ones that have been subjected to high pressure loads and neglect.

Closing a double, whether a sidelock or a boxlock, ejector or extractor with the muzzles pointed down at the ground and your trigger hand lifting the buttstock up to close it- that was shown in 1934 Paul A. Curtis' fine book- Guns and Gunning- I do see bro Legg's point- you then have to lift up the muzzles with the gun closed, and that arc of movement might cover a dog or fellow gunner.

Longer barrels and a longer LOP add a longer lever to the fulcrum- ie" the hinge pin or pivot point- also closing an ejector gun with the ejector springs tripped usually requires more pressure than closing an extractor gun.

When looking a double shotgun handed to me, both empty and broken open, I will ease the lever back against my thumb and close it- But with my own doubles- Smiths, Parkers and a Fox, when shooting them, I close them with the muzzles down and lift the buttstock from behind the grip and let them snap closed, in battery and ready to fire. Some of them are 100 years of age, still on face, no worn bolts or hinge pins-and I shoot them a lot- year around.

I also differ with the late Michael M. on chokes- I have NEVER altered the factory chokes in any of my shotguns- mainly 12 bores- if I need a wider pattern from the first tube I use a spreader load- BUT I am not a true upland gunner- I don't hunt grouse, woodcock or quail- mainly pass shoot waterfowl and Tower shoot pheasants- or hunt native pheasant in MI and MT and NE with flushing dogs- so a tighter choked 12 works best for my shooting habits.

I also enjoy "rag-ripping" crows and barn pigeons with tighter choked 12 bores with AA reloads (no 8 chilled shot) as they are not for the table- and as the late T. Nash B. once said in his article "The Dove": "You've about had all the thrills shotgunnery offers when you reach out and crumple in mid-air flight a high speeding coo-coo mourner"-- You don't get a 40 plus yard crumple with a cylinder bore, IMO. Now if we could only get doves on the legal "Hit-List" here== probably same long-shot odds as Obama getting a NRA Life Membership that he paid for himself--