doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Parker 12 ga question

OK, Went back to the gun shop which has the Parker, the serial number is 151645, 12 ga the letter V is above or below the serial number, (I don't remember above sn or below) the water-table, forend and barrell all have same sn, the barrel is marked with a 4 and small 2 barrel has initials JG and the top of barrel says Parker gun Meridian Conn Vulcan Steel as I said looks new, great/heavy case colors. Asking $3200 but will take less, tell me what you can. Thanks

3200 dalla is ah lota money fur ah gon....

V was the working grade, most went hunting a lot, it would be very rare to find original case colors but a recase job kills the NEW Gun collector value. You better show it to someone who knows before paying way to much for a restored gun.
bill

Someone who knows looked at the gun and said it was a redone both stock and barrel. If it is redone but looks new and is a 1908 or 1910 gun what might it be worth and also if the chambers are orig. would they be 2 3/4 or shorter? I wonder if $1500 would be a reasonable price.

Murphy: $1,500 is about the right price for a restored 12 gauge VH as long as the barrels are sound and have sufficient wall thickness. The original chamber length for a Meridan 12 gauge was 2 5/8 inches. $3,000+ is way too much IMO.

Best Regards, George

Murphy, you're getting caught up big time in the Parker mystic!

You already have a GOOD double, because if the Ithaca you own is a NID then you have one of the best built American boxlocks already.

Unless of course you are going into collecting then Parkers are the way to go.

Murphy: Now we are getting somewhere. For the record I sold an all original 95% case colors ca.1905 VH 30-inch F&F 12-bore for $4,000 about 3 years ago, I bought a nice Trojan 12-bore shooter in used but not abused condition at the Vintage Cup two years ago for $850--used but not abused means that it was never so used-up that it had to be rehabilitated "both stock and barrel." As to a ca.1908-10 gun, the wear slug in the back of the barrel lump can be a marker: 1905-09 = flat, 1910 et seq it is faceted, or a pre-1910 barrel set may have been re-worked for the later-day slug, but this would have involved matching the internal toggle. Parker Guns made after 1905 reflect an era of more modern metalurgey...

As the story goes, Henry Ford was at an auto race in 1904 or early '05, and there was a wreck. He watched the mechanics take apart the engine and noticed that the hard parts (rods, wrist pins, crank journals) reflected a technology not known in America at the time---vanadium alloy steel---which quickly transformed how certain hard parts of auto engines and gun actions were made in America. Thus the Wright Bro's really got flying in 1908 (with a better/lighter engine), coincidental with Mr. Ford's Model T (with a reliable 4-banger). Parker Bro's re-engineered the wear slug and toggle and associated top lever and connections in vanadium steel, which, surprisingly, was never touted or even mentioned in Parker ads until the late 1920s and early 30s.

Now you have a bit of history, and should understand that there is an abundance of good info to be had. But case on point, I suggest you go to parkergun.org and try to hook up with someone in real life near where you live who can give you some first-person hands-on advice. There are about 1,100 PGCA members nationwide, and some of them are actually experts who could, upon viewing the gun, say "go" or "no-go."

Keep in mind that it is much easier to buy a gun than sell it. With re-done stock and barrels it is strictly a shooter, and I bought a more-modern (1920s) Trojan for $850 at the Vintage Cup (on Sunday at 5 pm from a dealer). I believe there is too much discussion of chambering and chokes and too little about safe barrel thickness, especially when the barrels were, as you said, "redone." Be advised that redoing barrels does not enhance barrel thickness and safety. Ask yourself these questions: (1) "What am I gonna do with a $1,500 mistake?" (2) "Having blown my $1,500 wad, what will I do if an obviously better gun comes along?"

Number (2) happened to me back in the mid-'70s, when I had just spent $900 for my first Parker, a Trojan 20 bore (which I never liked to shoot). Days later a VH 16-bore, zero frame, 26-inch cut barrels appeared in the classifides of the Rockford newspaper (of all places!) for $650. I was able to stretch the budget and buy the VH, which I loved, and later, to my regret, sold to Herschel Chadick for $700. I never regretted selling the Trojan 20 bore. In other words, if Murphy can spend $1,500 on the subject VH and still have $$$ for a better gun that crops up soon, that's a whole different situation than tapping out a credit card at 28% interest to shake loose $1,500 cash. There is no answer---Murphy has a vested interest in a certain VH that he is unable to evaluate; he virtually begs for someone on this Forum to say, "go for it," and is apparently unwilling to seek better advice beyond this Forum.

Finally, please be advised that a gun that needed to be redone to look like new is often like a car that was "redone" by Macco: A repainted clunker is not "like new," no matter how it looks on the surface. But Alas! The faith that some people bestow on the Internet... EDM

EDM, I'll never buy this gun, only interested in learning what I can. Yes I do have 5 Ithaca field grade guns that are fun to shoot and never paid over $400. I have considered going more for quality than quantity, but don't really care if orig. or redone as long as the gun looks and works well. I shoot and hunt with all of my guns or I don't want them. The Parker does look nice and thats why I was interested in learning more about the Parker. After buying the Ithaca book by Snyder I really like the looks of some of the higher grade Ithaca's. Yes, I can afford it but don't plan on spending more for any gun than I think it is worth to me, just as I would not want to spend more on a car or bird dog than I thought was resonable. Where would you suggest one go for better advice?

EDM recommended parkergun.org - you probably missed that.

As I suspected, Mr. Murphy was on a fishing trip and we pundits have been snagged by our willingness to take the bait.

[1] As to better advice about a specific Parker: parkergun.org

[2] Probably just as well. If you are going to deal with a dealer, find one who has at least 20 Parkers to compare, one against the other.

[3] Owning 5 SxS's well-bought is a good start: In the pecking order of fine and valuable doubles, (a) Parker--(b) Fox--(c) L C Smith--(d) Lefever--(e) Ithaca (or Ithaca--Lefever reversed). The market has priced these guns in the order of valuation to collectors, most of whom shoot.

[4 a-b] Larry Baer wrote in the 1970s that he'd rather have one good, original Parker than ten that were not so good (ie. not original). Originality means closer to new; a re-done gun that looks good is not original and, thus, not "quality" in the context that one usually considers as value-added when speaking about antique collectible firearms (or furniture): the big bugaboo on Antiques Roadshow is "...well, this antique dresser in original finish should be insured for $300,000 to $400,000...but in its refinished condition I'd say it might bring $750 in a thrift shop...sorry."

Point being: A refinished antique/collectible arm is no longer collectible and should not be compared to a real/original-condition gun. $3,500 would buy a new RBL from Tony Galazan, or any of a number of good imports (new) or a real good Parker Reproduction ca. 1980s. Thus for the money you would not need be concerned with chamber lengths, barrel thickness, or other faults hidden under a glossy refinish.

[5] Snyder's book is essential reading for someone with 5 Ithacas. My book, Parker Guns: Shooting Flying (Collector Books 2008), is essential reading for someone into Parkers and the contemporary guns of all the other makers, including the Wm. Baker/Leroy Smith Ithacas (there is a chapter on Ithacas and a Sousa Grade is pictured along with others). Notice that I say "contemporary guns of all other makers": The Winchester 21 didn't get started until the Parker was almost out of production. I'll bet that $3,500 would buy a better sort of latter-day 21. Anyway, my latest book is all over the internet: Amazon, eBay, et al., and the trade edition should soon be going to second printing. I still have a few of the Signed 500 Ltd. Ed. if anyone is interested in such things. EDM