doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Help in identifying this SxS.

You can't really have a Greener on an OU. Merkel used the Kersten system (some of which employed round bolts like Greeners, some rectangular), which could be said to be LIKE a Greener, adopted for the different design of an OU.

Larry, I have edited my post to clarify. Thanks. The only Greener style bolt I have seen without accompanying functional underlugs is the Kersten system on some Grade 200 E Merkel over unders. For this reason, I am assuming that the gun Craig pictures is an American product, probably some kind of change to a Fox action. I suspect that it could have something to do with the Remington-Parker project, which would be as likely to utilize a used gun for experimentation as to use a new Fox which may have cost them fifty bucks. My research material shows no cooperation with Savage on the Parker-Fox project. Maybe Craig would bring the mystery gun to the Northeast Shoot for study by Fox and Parker researchers.

Could Researcher explain "The Fox gun that would be later fitted with the Infallible Single Trigger"? He couldn't be referring to the Lancaster prototype, which would be a standard Fox action.

I didn't realize the Kersten also used round bolts; maybe this is a Kersten then. I'll look through the pix I have and see if any shows the bolt mechanism more clearly. Stay tuned.....
Craig

Two photos that better show the bolt design. I honestly don't know the difference in the Kersten and Greener mechanism, so which do we have here? Thanks.

Thanks Craig for the additional pics. I see the back ends of the hammers are not as tall and are profiled very much differently than standard Fox hammers. Do the hammer tips act as firing pins, or are there separate pins? I like Bill's suggestion of bringing this gun up to the Northeast SxS shoot this weekend if you're planning to be there. Silvers

Greener or Kersten, it doesn't matter. Either one, if from a European manufacturer, would have a functional double Purdey bite. This looks like a Fox action with the rotary bolt system converted to a sliding crossbolt locking mechanism. Very unusual.

Craig, a Kersten doesn't really work on a sxs for the same reason a Greener doesn't work on an OU: significantly different designs. A Greener, or close copy thereof, requires an extension between the barrels, pierced by a crossbolt which locks into the breech. That obviously does not work on an OU. What typically happens there is that there are projections extending back from the top barrel, on either side of the action, which fit into slots in the standing breech, with bolts engaging both--and also protruding from the sides of the action (like a Greener, in that sense) when it's open, locking in place when it's closed.

Agree with eightbore that this one looks like an odd combination of locking features.

Well, Lancaster Arms Co. the manufacturer of the Infallable Single trigger was established in 1910. The A.H. Fox Gun Co. was established in 1905. So my thought was that an experimental/prototype for the Ansley H. Fox gun would have been even earlier? Just pure conjecture that someone may have gotten ahold of this prototype Ansley H. Fox gun and installed an Infallible Trigger. A.H. Worrest's patents (1,013,254; 1,029,781 and 1,029,782) that apply to the Infallable Single trigger were, were applied for from June 25, 1909 to October 16, 1911.

The Fox shotgun with an Infallible Single Trigger, pictured in the Lancaster Arms Co. catalogue, is sort of a bizare combination of a Philadelphia Arms Co. gun and an A.H. Fox Gun Co. gun. --

Larry: thanks for the explanation; I may have known it after all. If my visualization is correct, an SKB O/U wold be an example of a Kersten. Didn't register at first.