doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Great Grandfather's Gun

I have my Great Grandfather's gun it is mid to late 1800's. It has no name on it just Belgium Damascus on top of the barrel. Under the barrel it has ELG in an oval with a crown on top of the oval. It also has a 12 with a C under it in a diamond. Also has 18.2 on both barrels and looks like EL or EE in really fancy scroll this is all under the barrels close to the breach. There are two numbers one is 2 404 spaced like that. Then this number is hard to read but I think it is 811 03 ~ 02 spaced like that. It is missing the stock a long story about a rattler years ago. While trying to get a new stock made the hammers and firing pins and springs went missing. I want to fix it so my dad can shoot it he was the only one of seven the youngest that did not get to shoot it. I know about shooting it with modern ammo, we will check the barrels and shoot black powder loads. He just wants to shoot a squirrel with it one time. Thanks for the help.

You have a Belgium made gun as indicated by the ELG in the oval. And it is 12ga indicated by the 12 c in a diamond. The other marks are typical proof marks and the 18.2 is the barrels interior dimension in millimeters I believe. If I were trying to fix this gun I would look for a similar Belgium made one and scavenge the parts from it. There are quite a number of these old Belgiums floating around out there and they are mostly of dubious quality. I doubt the gun has significant value aside from sentimental value to you and your father (which can be a considerable value.) But investing in a skilled gunsmith to make the parts to bring it back to shootable condition probably wouldn't make much sense.

Since you didn't cite any nitro proof marks on the gun and it is prior to era when smokeless powder was prevalent, to safely shoot the gun I would suggest some black powder shells be loaded up for it if you get that far. Black powder shell are available from some custom loaders or you can easily enough load them yourself with a little instruction.

Crowned ELG indicates it was made after 1892. -Jani

Being made after 1892 would that tell you what kind of ammo it would be able to shoot? What does a nitro mark look like because there are a couple other marks on the gun? Where would I look for a gun to buy for parts? How much would I expect to pay for a similar gun? I don't care how much our gun it worth because we would never sell it no matter how much it is worth. Thanks for all of your help.

Here are the Belgian proof marks.
http://damascus-barrels.com/Belgian_All_Proofmarks.html

Keep the loads below 9,000 psi and you will be fine, once a gunsmith gives the ok. You can pick up some ammo from RST.

You are asking for help with parts. It would be helpful if you posted some pictures.

Pete

I can't figure out how to load pics on here. If you give me your email I can send some pics. I need to get hammers and springs and firing pins. That is all I know of but I am sure there are other parts that I need. Thanks for the web site I found that it has a v with an * on top. To keep it under 9000psi would that be black powder or a light smokeless load? Would this gun shoot a 2 1/2 or 2 3/4 shell.

If you keep the pressure under the 9000psi it really makes no difference whether it is black or smokeless loads. In a 12ga it is pretty easy to get down around 6000psi - 7000psi. Helps to keep the shot load light, like one ounce, which will do just fine on squirrels. The age and the 12c with no other length marked next to it,like 70mm, would indicate it was originally chambered for 2 1/2" shells, 65mm, probably. Someone may have opened the chambers to the longer length after market however.

I took the gun to a gunsmith at the Bass Pro Shop in Springfield MO and he said it was a W. Richards. I need to get all the parts to make it fire. Any places to look online for a used W. Richards. How hard is it to find 2 1/2" shells or reloading gear to do 2 1/2".

Moseley: The kind of gun you describe is often called a "farmer's gun" or "hardware store gun," and is the kind of hard-working tool that helped build America a century ago. Many of us here understand your desire to put it back in action. Here are a few thoughts that may make your project easier.

* Belgian doubles of this era and style, and the W. Richards name in particular, are pretty common, and a search on the Internet might turn up a similar gun you could buy for parts, or the parts themselves.
* An experienced gunsmith who truly specializes in old doubles can replace missing parts, repair broken parts, and check out the barrels for safety, which would be smart.
* If the barrels don't pass muster, which is a distinct possibility, you can buy sub-gauge inserts that take a 12 down to a 20 (or whatever) and contain the pressure.
* You can buy very both low pressure and black powder shells from a specialty outfit like RST for $10 a box.

Good luck with the restoration, and the squirrel hunt! TT

Did the 'smith specify whether it was a Belgian "W. Richards" or and English "W. Richards?" There is a lot of difference. Belgian made guns were farmer tools and the English made guns much better, even in lower grades. It is unknown if W(illiam) Richards of Preston/Liverpool was involved in the use of his "W. Richards" brand on the Belgian guns or if the Belgian use of "W. Richards" was purely an attempt to fool Americans into thinking they were buying a Westley Richards (who never used anything but "Westley Richards").

2 1/2" hull length is not the issue for your gun. Low pressure loads that will give it the least strain is the issue. Several of the smaller shell companies are now selling low pressure loads for vintage guns. Many of us who shoot vintage guns reload low pressure, low velocity, and low recoil shells for our guns. BTW, black powder is not the answer as BP loads are basically as high in pressure as nitro.