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Joined: Mar 2005
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 680 |
BUT the lil 16 hammer gun I just picked up will NOT allow a 2 3/4 inch shell to be chambered, without a great deal of force being applied... LD I think 2 Piper is correct. Check the crimp area of your reloaded shell and see if it is not "belling" out. Just a little bit can cause a hard chambering round (by the way it doesn't make the shell unsafe just makes it a pain in the ass to chamber) If it is there are some simple adjustments that can be made to your crimp start and final crimp dies on your re-loader that should solve your problem.
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
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I think I'm confused here. I thought this post was about shooting 2 3/4" shells in guns originally chambered for 2 1/2, 2 5/8 shells etc. Obviously different loads will make a marked difference. I was assuming we were talking the same shot and powder charge.
My experience was with identical ammunition and different chambers. When you change loads, all bets are off. Dick the discussions on recoil, felt recoil etc. have raged for years but the simple truth is that recoil is governed by Newtons Third Law of Motion which simply put says that for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. So long as the total ejecta weight, exit velocity and firearm weight remain constant recoil energy will remain the same no matter what the hull length is, no matter what the chamber length is, no mater what the forcing cone angels are and no matter what the bore size is. Here is the formula for calculating recoil: E= 1/2(Wr/32)(WbxMv+4700xWp/7000xWr) squared E= energy in foot pounds Wr= weight of gun in pounds Wb= weight of shot and wad Mv= muzzle velocity in fps Wp= weight of powder in grains You will notice that there are no allowances for chamber length, chamber pressure or anything but gun weight, ejecta weight and muzzle velocity.
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Joined: Jan 2002
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
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I personally have noticed a difference. My 2 3/4" low pressure loads (7/8 oz. @5200 psi @ 1150 fps) have alot LESS recoil than the 2.5" Nobel Sports, Gamebores, and B&P's I was shooting in my short chambered guns. I would like to note too that my handloads produce significantly less pressure than most factory loaded 2.5" shells, especially when compared to the Italian offerings. RST's are just about as soft shooting and have almost as low pressures as the handloads, but way more expensive. I've shot thousands of 2 3/4" shells in my vintage guns and have never had a cracked stock or blown barrel. The only stock I had crack was on a Darne and I was shooting my last box of 2.5" fibre wad Noble Sports. Those puppies had some bite. All of Sherman Bells articles over the years concerning this very topic has convinced me that if you keep your pressures down, shot charge light, and velocities within reason, you should never have a problem.
Dustin Dustin, I've noticed pretty much the same thing. However, the short shells are often hunting loads rather than target loads--perhaps more velocity and a heavier shot charge. Other than RST's and some Polywads, it's hard to find short shells in this country that are loaded to the same kind of modest velocities (and reduced shot charges) many of us use in our low pressure, 2 3/4" reloads. Several years back, a now-deceased friend was shooting his own low pressure reloads through one of his Belgian "best" game guns. I had been sent some Brit loads to field test. Can't recall what they were, although I know they were neither Eleys nor Gamebores. Anyhow, I handed him a couple and said, "Here, try these light English loads!" After which he told me where I could put my light English loads.
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 1,281 Likes: 12
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 1,281 Likes: 12 |
If it didn't make a difference, why bother even noting the chamber length on the gun (if it is marked) - why not just 12GA and let it go at that?
There are so many reasons why it might or might not work that you can waste a lot of your life at it. Why not just use the correct case and LET IT GO AT THAT?? And besides, you trust these people to know what YOUR gun is doing?
And BTW - I have a Perazzi with .723 bores and it is way soft shooting even with pigeon loads. Gun fit, not bore ID, makes for recoil or not. And that is not JMO, it's a simple fact.
WtS
Dr.WtS
Mysteries of the Cosmos Unlocked
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Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 271 Likes: 2
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Oct 2008
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Like a lot of other folks, i have been shooting 2 3/4 shells in short chambers with no problems. Caveat that they are low pressure loads (mine) using one of Joe Woods recipes. BUT the lil 16 hammer gun I just picked up will NOT allow a 2 3/4 inch shell to be chambered, without a great deal of force being applied...It will shoot short RST's as long as I have it... Had the same issue with my 16s. Factory RSTs would chamber perfect but my reloads would not. Culprit was the brass base of the hull needed to be re-sized slightly smaller during the reloading. Lowered the re-sizer collet (MEC Sizemaster) by 1/8 turn and the problem was solved.
Mike C
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 1,281 Likes: 12
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 1,281 Likes: 12 |
I think I'm confused here. I thought this post was about shooting 2 3/4" shells in guns originally chambered for 2 1/2, 2 5/8 shells etc. Obviously different loads will make a marked difference. I was assuming we were talking the same shot and powder charge.
My experience was with identical ammunition and different chambers. When you change loads, all bets are off. Dick the discussions on recoil, felt recoil etc. have raged for years but the simple truth is that recoil is governed by Newtons Third Law of Motion which simply put says that for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. So long as the total ejecta weight, exit velocity and firearm weight remain constant recoil energy will remain the same no matter what the hull length is, no matter what the chamber length is, no mater what the forcing cone angels are and no matter what the bore size is. Here is the formula for calculating recoil: E= 1/2(Wr/32)(WbxMv+4700xWp/7000xWr) squared E= energy in foot pounds Wr= weight of gun in pounds Wb= weight of shot and wad Mv= muzzle velocity in fps Wp= weight of powder in grains You will notice that there are no allowances for chamber length, chamber pressure or anything but gun weight, ejecta weight and muzzle velocity. Except that totally ignores acceleration rates which DO affect PERCEIVED recoil. The total recoil energy is easily calculated per above but what you FEEL is not without incorporating the impulse as has been noted elsewhere. WtS
Dr.WtS
Mysteries of the Cosmos Unlocked
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Joined: Sep 2007
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 2,814 Likes: 2 |
Well, heres the deal...RST's chamber and shoot perfectly....BUT even FACTORY 2 3/4 inch loads require a good push to make em chamber...So, I dont consider it a problem, I'll jusr feed it RST's...Perceived recoil discussions always open up a can of worms. I dont notice any more recoil in my 12 bore guns, shooting 2 3/4 loads in shorter chambers....But then again, I shoot a .416 at water jugs....
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Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 680
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 680 |
Except that totally ignores acceleration rates which DO affect PERCEIVED recoil. The total recoil energy is easily calculated per above but what you FEEL is not without incorporating the impulse as has been noted elsewhere.
WtS WtS As far as I know there is no calculation for "PERCEIVED" recoil even using the same ammunition and firearm because everyone's nervous system is different. I do agree wholeheartedly that stock fit, type of mechanical configuration of the gun ( gas operated, recoil operated of fixed breech) and recoil reduction system used and even the activity you are engaged in (shooting flying game birds versus shooting pattern) will definitely affect how we perceive recoil but the constant is what is measurable and perception isn't. So the moral is get your gun fitted, shoot the ammunition your gun was intended to shoot and drink 7 year old sour mash whisky.
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Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 190
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 190 |
I agree except for the sour mash whiskey. It's not that there is anything wrong with fancy "corn squeezins", it is just that I would prefer 50-year-old Cognac...if I could afford it.
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 10,720 Likes: 1357
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 10,720 Likes: 1357 |
Chas,
I bet your P gun weighs more than 6 3/4 lbs, by the way. I think you forgot that part of the story....
Best,
Ted
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