doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Ithaca Case Colors Circa 1936

Opinions please: What causes case colors to fade, if not exposure to sunlight? Handling, it seems to me, should not be a significant issue, because you don't spend a lot of time--whether hunting or shooting targets--with either hand around the receiver. On some guns, they certainly fade faster than on others. Parker Repros (no flaming, guys--I really do like them!) seem to have CC that faded notoriously fast. On the other hand, for a very basic gun that I'm pretty sure had cyanide colors, I've seen a surprising number of old Hunter Fultons with a lot of wear elsewhere, yet retaining a lot of color. But as Mike pointed out, you'll see a lot of guns with no CC on the receiver, but very bright CC on the forend iron. (Also, fairly frequently, on the water table and breech face.)

I have one of the late ICD's, and I believe all of those were CC by Turnbull. Can't comment on how well they match the original NID's, but I think they're quite attractive and, so far at least, quite durable.

I remember when this question was posed to Dr. Gaddy.
His answer was that the colored layers are micro thin oxides, and vary in hardness. All are succeptible to oxygenation and wear. All coloring is fading from birth.
I don't recall him saying that UV has much effect. But, since some of the atoms of the colors can be excited away by UV wavelengths, then UV must have an effect on some colors with certain levels of exposure.


I'm sure those that have committed his works to memory can better answer this question.

As far as the best preservative, remember, no friction, no oxygen, no light. Just like the underside of a fore end.

Twice Barrel - I had Turnbull do an NID for me some years back. When I lay it down next to a couple of Ithaca SBTs I bought new, I have to say it's as good a representation of Ithaca colors I could have hoped for.

Walt - here's a question for you. Early on, the checkering on Ithaca's higher grade guns utilized a double-cut or two-line border. At what point in time did they go to the simpler borderless patterns, or was it one of those whimsical changes that took place gradually?

Plainer, yes, simpler, no. A lot of runovers are hidden by one and two line borders. Borderless checkering is very hard to get right.

Actually, for me, bordered checkering is hard to get right...

Oscar did extensive tests and found that wear not sun affected colors. By the way Oscar was the head of the University of IL electrical eng. dept. You can be sure a PHD with that kind of background was very professional in his tests.
bill

My vote on disappearing colors is wear. Here is a NID #2 showing strong color in protected areas but beginning to show a lessening of color on the knuckle area.




5E, I have contemporary guns (7Es)one of which has the boarder checkering and one that does not. I think it was a function of which one of the Hallam boys did the job. I personally prefer the bordered checkering. A study of it definitely indicates to me that it was not done as a cover-up for over runs because there are none.

I wonder if folks are remembering correctly that Dr. Gaddy concluded that sunlight did not affect colors, or perhaps just that it was undetectable in his experience and/or insignificant in his opinion, especially in contrast to handling/abrasion.


I wonder how extensively he studied light fade? Do you suppose he left a variety of colored pieces exposed to sunlight for 20, 30, 40 years? Or did he develop an accelerated fade test? I know Eastman Kodak Co. spent considerable money and brain power developing tests that would, over the course of a couple of weeks, predict the longterm dark and light stability of its dyes. Of course, you need to establish a baseline of real-time fade before you can create an artificial test. So, If Dr. Gaddy believed there was zero fade, he couldn't very well develop an accelerated test.

Perhaps someone will chime in with a reference to his own words.

If someone started now...put a piece on the window ledge and a piece in a drawer, some of us might live long enough to have the answer.

Obviously, time is relative.
Seeking out the least degraded examples is what collecting is based on. So, for the purposes of collecting, the best examples are in comparison to what remains of the originals.
Walt has very likely the finest examples of every product that Ithaca ever made. I would consider them to be reference samples. I am humbled that he shares them with us.

The chemistry of case coloring is complex, and there are colors that cannot last. They might make a year, 10, 50, but some of the compounds formed in the fire are not stable.
Oscar listed some metal oxides that don't last. Though case colors are not just oxides. And of great interest to me are those compounds that don't adhere to traditional group theory boundaries. It has to do with how the lattice is formed and frozen at the moment of quench. I recall them to be in the yellows, coppers, and rose shades. I often wonder how long the bizarre colors of a Krieghoff Essencia will last.
Manipulating these processes can give consistent results, but also consistent results of very fleeting artistry.

Hello Mike,
As a long time technical employee of our beloved EK yellow box I am fully aware of the work we did on predicting long term light and dark keeping of photographic dye images. I worked long and hard on EK's answer to the brand X instant photographic product. (Funny, with digital photography, it seems as though we were in the ancient times). But we are not talking dye fade with case colors. Anyway, here is a photo of a 1930ish NID 5E. I certainly do not know its dark/light keeping history but it looks pretty good to me.

This gun shows no sign of use. I am the third owner, the first bought it from the Company, the second just keep it stored, and here it is.
It would be great if we could run a controlled fade test through the EK equipment. Unfortunately, all that remains of the building that housed that equipment is a grassy field. So sad!

Well one thing for damn sure I'm not going to disagree with Walter C. Snyder or Dr. Oscar Gaddy when it comes Ithaca guns or color case hardening steel.