doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Restocker who doesn't have FFL; is this legal?

I always was told that you had to make a substantial part of your living from the gun business to be required to have a ffl or a tax permit to charge sales tax..but then I was told that even one sale was enough for me to have to have a sales tax permit and then I was told by someone higher up that the other person was wrong.I believe I would get a written opinion from the regional office of the BATF before doing anything.

Tax permits are generally state and local gov't req'mts.

The 'loophole' for your brother-in-law to make a stock for you is the legal ability to "loan" a gun to someone. Even California has allowance for loaning a gun. Nobody in the gov't is in the business of chasing down some hobbyist that makes stocks for a couple people a yr. Now that same guy puts an advertisement out there and starts turning a significant number of stocks a year for money and that becomes a different story. In Calif, it reqs a business license, a Certificate of Eligibility, a tax number, and finally an FFL.

BTW, I've searched the federal regs and nowhere does it require " a signed copy of an FFL". It simply requires that the recipient of a shipped gun either be legally eligeable to receive the gun (owns the gun, etc.) or be a FFL holder. How all this is determined is on the shipper to determine. ATF has ruled that a fax is now acceptable means, and they also have a website they say is acceptable means of verification. Hell, if you know the guy and he gives you his FFL number on the phone, you can ship it as long as he actually has one. The proof of the recipient having an FFL will come out in an investigation. You don't need to have any evidence as a private citizen and a FFL holder only needs the recipient's FFL number in his bound book. The methods of verifying someone has a FFL are only some means they have deemed that you did due diligence in trying to obtain verification that the recipient had an FFL. What? you expect Remington to send you a copy signed by someone? ROTFALMAO Prior to the web listing of FFLs, the name manufacturers status of their FFL was virtually unknown. But, nobody I'm aware of got in trouble for sending Remington, Winchester, CSM, etc. their guns.

You know, I'm sorry that this has gone where it has gone. If Dave K wants, I will call Mrs Galurdi myself tomorrow and ask the specific numbers. She told me that they have been through this scenario many times in the past. They weren't created under a rock. They know that they cannot root out every gunsmith, stocker, and engraver doing work outside federal law. We know a lot of things are done outside the law in this country, but it don't make it legal just because you aren't caught. If Dave wants to keep this childish thing up, he is going against a professional that will eat him up. I hope not, but.
Butch

"Butchy"

once again, using YOUR quote "even your brother in law", needs a FFL to work on your stock is full of hot air,just like you are.There is NO law/rule that requires anyone who is NOT in the business,much less your "brother in law" to have a FFL to do something to your stock.

Once again,if you can find the rule post it,just like the "need the FFL in hand" ,otherwise you proving yourself to be just anothor A$$$hole who posts his opinion on the internet.
There is more then enough rules/laws we go by and no reason to add others from some Bozo(insert Butch) who says its so on the internet.

Once again,if you can't find or read the rule,find someone who will help you with the big words and post the link from the BATF that says, those not in the business/"your brother inlaw" need a FFL.While your at it show us the the one that says you need the FFL in hand (you dont-they just have to have one and you can prove it on the site I linked too')
Now run along and go find your facts with the link to the BATF rule that says anyone,even if he is not in the business "your brother in law" needs a FFL to work on your stock.

Butch,
It's not a big deal. But the inspectors from ATF get their advice from their management and policy that flows down. These policies are just that, policy, not law. This "signed copy" thing was a policy and if you followed it and the recipient turned out to be a mass murderer and falsified the FFL, you still violated the law to ship only to a legit FFL holder. But, the ATF made a policy stating that you did due diligence and they would accept that you did a "reasonable" job of verification.

In my job, I deal with the Code of Federal Regulations (of which the ATF laws are a part of) daily, but in the aviation end of them. Inspectors and other 'compliance finders' often have very different interpretations of regulations (laws) and much time is spent in this area. Heck, I make a living argueing/negotiating this stuff with the FAA. They both (ATF and FAA) have policy, guidance, and regulations structured in the same manner, and much time is spent clarifying what's guidance, what's policy, and what's law. And it makes a huge difference on compliance.

I started this question day's ago and just now came back in. Let us say man is doing gunstock refinishing or rechequering of lazer cut factory stoks. He is not your brother inlaw. He does this work for money. he lives in another state. It is not the loan of firearm in normal sense of the word.Reading all the replies here I conclude he must have a Ffl for gunsmithing type of work otherwsie the customer and man doing the work are in violation of the law .Correct? Nitro

I installed a scope, rings, and bases on my nephews rifle awhile back. Am I going to jail for this? What is the statute of limitations?

They'll never take me alive.

checkering...no problem if all you get is the wood. The action is the only part that's at all of an issue, right?

More to the point for someone like me, what happens if a good friend decides he wants me to stock a gun for him? We're at the range, his gun cracks at the wrist, and I offer to stock it. He leaves his gun with me for a few months and I restock it as a favor with a blank he buys. Legal? I read the law and it certainly sounded legal, but am all ears if someone can point me to a specific reference that says otherwise--I couldn't find one. (in my state at least he can sell me that gun with no transfer, no paperwork, no nuthin'--and we're completely legal)

What about if my friend gives me a really nice english walnut blank in trade for my efforts? Now I'm not making money, but I'm being compensated...

Now, what happens if that friend lives out of state and hand-delivers that gun? I'm no pro and have no intention of being one, I don't make a dime since it's only a hobby I've done on my own guns, but we're starting to get a little grayer...is that gun loaned?

Thoughts?

Two issues.

1) Shipping the gun out of state to be received by someone who does not have an FFL.
My understanding is that if a non-FFL owner ships a gun out of state to an FFL the FFL can work on it and ship it directly back to the owner. I do not know of any other exception for shipping out of state to a non FFL holder is allowed.

2) Loaning a gun.
It probably varies state to state regarding giving a gun to someone not under your supervision. I believe some states have special rules for gunsmiths that are independaant of the FFL rules.

In any event, be careful out there. I always run a BATF ez-check before shipping to the FFL, even if I have dealt with that FFL before. I had one buyer on Gunbroker whose first FFL gave him an expired license so after I checked I informed the buyer and was cheerfully sent a valid license belonging to a legitimate FFL.

Why do you bundle "refinishing and recheckering" together with "gunsmithing?" I finish and checker gunstocks for others. It is wood work; whether the wood is a gunstock or an axe handle is immaterial. If the action does not change hands, there is no "gun" involved, therefore it is not "gunsmithing type of work." If there is no gun involved (as there must be for a restocking), an FFL is not needed. You indicated in your first post that you knew that, but here again you preface your post by saying the man is refinishing and recheckering....no mention of gunsmithing. What exactly is it you want to have the man do?