doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Shot Column Heighth And Crossing Shots

JL, exactly! not a thing in the world to do with shot string, I thot that's what I'd said.

Jim's comment jarred me to better think thru the long shotshell column vs. the long shot column matter. Clearly, its not shotshell column length in-and-of-itself, its the increased shot deformation brought about by more shot-to-bore contact in a smaller bore vs. a larger bore, other factors being equal. That said, I'm pretty much where Jerry Lape puts the issue. Do we have any data here? Perhaps, too, 40 yards is too short a distance to make any notable difference. Perhaps 50 yards is better - - this yardage often put forward as being near max for a full choke 20 gauge shooting 1 1/8 ounces of shot. Is there a means of sharpening our understanding of this matter, based more on theoretical values, if empirical information does not come forward?

Regardless, its sure a good plug for hard, well-protected shot in smaller gauges when used for long range crossover type shooting.

Jim Legg and I are in total agreement on this one. Well said, Jim. But, look at it this way, if you will.

If the target you mentioned is moving at 30 mph, that is 44 fps. If the shot charge has dropped to 900 fps at that distance (arbitrary number), it is moving at 613 mph.

Now, for each foot the target moves in forward progress, the shot charge will move 20 plus feet. Let's assume (since I'm making other assumptions and guesses here, such as fps) the shot string is as much as 5 feet long at that distance. During the time the entire 5 foot long shot string moves through the target the target will only move 3 inches (forward progress).

These are assumed values for fps at target and shot string length I know, but you can vary them to suit your beliefs and it will not change the fact that the length of the shot string (assuming reasonable values) has very little bearing on whether or not you hit the target/bird.

To take this a step further lets say we're talking about a 4" diameter target. Every pellet in the entire length of the 5 foot shot string that is contained in a 4" circle has the ability to hit the target before it passes out of harms' way. We understand that this would be a slightly DIAGONAL 4" section of the string, not a 4" section of the pattern that we see strike a pattern sheet, but given a reasonable even pattern the effect would be the same.

Interesting stuff to talk about at night and while it's raining too hard to shoot, but it is not something I will spend three seconds considering when I carry my gun in my hands in anticipation of a shot, game or clay. Good mechanics and lots of practice is what brings down birds with regularity.

Stan

This thread reminded me of something Chris Batha said in his book Breaking Clays. In a brief discussion of Cutts Comps, he said that the only real effect that these devices have on the shot charge is that they attenuate the shot string and stated further that the only clay sport in which this would be of an advantage would be skeet. And the specs set forward in the initial post here are most similar to a skeet field's middle stations (#s 3, 4, and 5) but sort of grade into trap anges at sta #s 1,2,6 and 7.

To me this seemed somewhat counter-intuitive and that, if anything, a long shot string would be more of an advantage in trap (or, say, an upland bird flushing before and away from the gun).

It seems to me that outdoorlvr's 90 degree interception of target and shot charge (i.e., sta #5) would mathematically be the least likely scenario for a long shot string intercepting a moving target. Conversely, it seems that the shallow angles typical of trap would make convergence much more likely. A simple thought experiment would prolly substantiate this, dontcha think?

In a S.C.'s magazine 1 1/8oz and 1oz loads were tested - the 1oz loads had as good a pattern as 1 1/8 . Because of the higher column of shot , there was more deformation - they colored the shot from front to rear with different colored paint , used high speed photography to do this - the shot at the rear never made it on the pattern circle . That said , a 20ga being smaller in dia. would have a higher shot column than a 12ga , hence more shot deformation - a poorer pattern . My guess is the shot string would also suffer if that last bunch of shot was deformed . Paul

Gotta wonder where some of these guys get their ideas. Just pulling something out of your a$$ and writing it in a book or article don't make it so.

Batha (if quoted correctly) is full of crap. Shortening the shotstring at skeet distances is pointless since there isn't much of a string developed at 21 yards. The advantage of the Cutts is an evenly distributed pattern, something which can be experimentally proven. Shotstring length is only of concern at long distances and then only on crossing shots. If you actually look at the data from Burrard and Brister this becomes evident.

A long shotstring is never desirable. The ideal is to have all your shot arrive at the target in a single plane, such as you would mistakenly think it does from just looking at a pattern board.

The pattern is three dimensional. The target does move as the cloud goes by, and the length of the string from the target's perspective results in a pattern that is oval rather than circular. Thus the same amount of shot covers a wider lateral area resulting in poor performance.

Hard round pellets protected from bore scrubbing, buffered, and gently accelerated result in tight long distance patterns and minumum shotstring.

HeviShot http://www.hevishot.com/home.html is forcing us to re-examine what we 'know' to be true. The out-of-round shot with little 'tails' seems to patterns tighter than any previous product.
This is fun to talk about (esp. since most of us can't hunt for another month ) but of minimum importance compared to pattern spread and distribution.

Your basic premise makes the two loads for all intent and purposes equall in all respects. So the entire question is self answering and moot. Change size of shot all you want they are for all intents and purposes the same just coming out of two different size bores. I will say that it is a heck of a lot easier to get a 12 to do what you want than a 20. In effect you are loading the 12 down more than you are loading the 20 up to max. capicity or performance.

You state a 70% pattern at 40 yards, with the same payload and the same speed. Since you took out differences in patterning the extra amount of shot subject to bore scrub is not an issue as you insist that 70% still hit the pattern target.

Shotstring is not a major factor as the bird will only travel a few inches from the first pellets' arival to the 95% pellet arival. In most statistical analanalsys (real spelling), 95% is about all that you have to worry about. There is always tha golden BB or lucky pellet tha might hit the vital area but most of us are going to rely on 95% chance not a 1:1,000 or 1:1,000,000 chance. So if you look at 95% of the shot load and compare the two different shot strings you would be lucky to find 12" difference. So what does the bird more forward an extra 1/2" as the longer shot string passes by? Big deal. There is not any real difference to a hunter and he will not hit or miss a bird with either load because of which one he is shooting.

Hevishot brings up a more interesting point to me. Round is not a natural, efficient, areodynamic shape. Plane wing as they tend to be tear drop shape because it is more areodynamically efficient. Had lead remain the first choice for hunting loads, and still legal in all places, would some real bright shell maker be selling us loads, with tear drop shaped shot, because it is more efficient and patterns much better?

I have read some weird stuff in this thread. Batha on Cutts patterns is way off the mark. Short shot strings or long shot strings, it doesn't make a bit of difference on a skeet field, the shot all gets there while the target travels about an inch and a half. The crazy statement about painted shot not reaching the pattern board if it is in the back of the stack?? What about a 100% pattern, like on a 32" circle at 38 yards from a great barrel, a not uncommon pattern in today's world. It's all on the pattern sheet, he just doesn't know which is which. I think the paint dried and he can't tell the difference between the painted and unpainted shot. The best example of a bad post is the fellow who won't read Brister because he (Brister) likes Winchester ammo. Brister's research is there to draw your own conclusions in Shotgunning, the Art and the Science. You don't have to believe the conclusions, but don't throw the book away. This shot string business can mostly be figured out by simple arithmetic using velocity and elapsed time figures. An example would be that nothing that could possibly happen to a shot string could possibly have any effect on an 18 yard shot at 45 degrees, like a high six skeet bird. The shot all gets there while the target moves about an inch, even if the shot string is 40 feet long, which it isn't. Yet here we are, eighty years after the advent of skeet, still talking about it. Give me a break.

Shot Stringing.
I think I know this but decided to spend my coffee break doing the maths based on Burrards data.
Q1 Comparable pellet count differance.
Taking it to an extreme position to exaggerate the effect A stationary target would receive only 5% more pellets that a 30mph traversing target. The results of a " long" shot string vs a "short" shot would be less than one pellet so in order to come up with a mathmatical differance you would need to shoot this " fat duck " about 30 times with each load to get the exact average which you could then express as 0.x pellet. Basically Mr Campbell had it. No differance.
In doing the Math I found out that our average shot string at 30 yds would be about 7' to cover 95% of pellets.It would be travelling at @ 750fps. A poor or elongated shot string might be 33% longer which would allow the target to traverse a further 1&3/4". I wouldn't worry about it if I were you.
Thanks for the excercise tho.