doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Anyone familiar with this name as shotgun maker?

I bought a very nice 20ga SxS today. Only names on it are Budapest (I know where that is) and Fegyvergyar which may or may not be the name of the builder. Gun's proofs show it to be Hungarian, proofed in 1942. Unusual configuration in that it is a sideplated boxlock but with reinforced shoulders on the action and a Purdey style 3d bite. Someone really wanted this gun to last. It has Bohler Blitz barrels, and an ejector mechanism mounted inside a metal cylinder in the forend. (Haven't seen ejectors like this before.) Full coverage scroll on action and first couple inches of the barrels. I bought it based on the quality of the worksmanship I saw and the great barrels which are perfect with hand filed rib. Stout enough to be a great live pigeon gun but in 2.5" 20ga? If you know how to pronounce the name I would appreciate a phonetic assist? Any feedback on the builder would especially be appreciated.

Jerry:
I can't help with the phonetics, but I think it is Fegyvergyar Reszvenytarsasag / FÉGARMY Fegyvergyártó Kft, similar to FEG??[ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fegyver-_%C3%A9s_G%C3%A9pgy%C3%A1r ](copy to a browser), who manufactured Frommer's pistols. Any chance in getting a pic of the flats?

1891-1919 Fegyver és Gépgyár Részvénytársaság, Budapest ('F.G.GY.')
[Weapon and Machinery Factory Company, Budapest]
1919-1946 Fémáru, Fegyver- és Gépgyár Részvénytársaság, Budapest
[Metal Products, Weapon and Machinery Factory Company, Budapest]
1946-1959 Lámpagyár (Lampart), Budapest
[Lamp Factory (Lampart), Budapest]
1959-1975 Fémáru és Szerszámgépgyár NV
[Metal Products and Tool Machinery Factory Company]
1975-2003 Fegyver és Gázkészulékgyár ('FEG'), Budapest
[Weapon and Gas Appliance Factory, Budapest]
2003- FEGArmy Fegyvergyártó Kft ('FEG'), Budapest
[FEGArmy Weapon Manufacturing Company, Budapest]

from - http://sunblest.net/gun/Info.htm



Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

ellenbr, It will be a while before I can post a photo of the flats, but I can tell you pretty precisely what is there if you would like. Email me at jvlape@cox.net. The marks are absolutely normal for 1942.

All I can say is that I bought an imported-to-Canada no-name 12-gauge Hungarian double nearly 30 years ago at a ridiculously low price for the value, maybe $150---and, yes, I let it escape and have been kicking myself ever since. As Jerry said, it was stout and balanced nicely, plain as pudding but a real good gun.

I think that most if not all Fegy' doubles were based on patents of Rudolf Frommer. Earlier guns had triggerguard levers while all(?) have reinforced sides.

With kind regards,
Jani

I have seen a few SxS's made by FEG in Hungary in the 1950's. Seemed like decent utility guns, nothing very fancy.

JERRY

Rudolf Frommer was born in Budapest on August 4th, 1868 and a source or 2 gives him being an engineer before joining Femaru Fegyver es Gepgyar in 1896. Other sources, http://sunblest.net/gun/Bio.htm , give he was a banker and was drawn to Femaru Fegyver es Gepgyar(prior name in 1896) to rectify their finanical troubles and in 1898 became obsessed with weapons. He may not have been a master but it would have been after his employment at Femaru Fegyver es Gepgyar and for now I don’t know where his walk-about took him, or if he was a journeyman. So with this additional info I have less faith in the fact that Rudolph Frommer was a scattergun designer but the probability still exists. He had some sort of disease in his 60s and that was the reason for his departure/retirement from Femaru Fegyver es Gepgyar in 1935. Shortly thereafter on September 1st, 1936 he expired in Budapest. From afar, and about 100 years later, it is difficult to determine just what part Rudolf Frommer played as a designer, practical product manufacture and supervisor at Femaru Fegyver es Gepgyar. Several other masterful minds were involved in theory as well as application and Karel Krnka was one of them. Karel Krnka(April 6th, 1858 – Feb. 25th, 1926 in Prague) was more of a theorist in gun design as well as writer but may have played a part, or imported the technology, as he was an employee of Zbrojovka Praga and then Ceskoslovenska Zbrojovka. So I know he came in contact with the Holek boys(Emanuel-master 1920/1921/1922???, Frantisek-master 1919??, Vaclav Holek was an apprentice in Pisek and then on to Mulacz in Vienna in 1905 and should have been a master by 1909/1910. He traveled to Nowonty of Prague in 1910, possibly as a master, to streamline the mechanized production of H&H sidelock scatterguns) and I guess Krnka may have taken some pointers from the boys Holek, specifically Vaclav, although I’m not positive who was the father of the ZP series but suspect Vaclav Holek. Karel Krnka apprenticed to his father, Sylvestr Krnka, who had been an apprentice to the Viennese gunamker Nowtony in the 1840s. I don’t know if his walk-about took him outside of the Austro-Hungarian empire but guess him to have been a master by 1881/1882. So in my mind, and for now, you have a supervisor, theorist and boys Holek all who may have contributed to the Femaru Fegyver es Gepgyar scattergun.

Jerry, yes I'd like pics and I would try to put some info together on the scattergun, its possibly maker and mesh it with the pics.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Jerry:
Any indication as to the steel type? I'd guess Poldi W02(Poldi registered trademark from 7/18/1893) or CKV for the tubes and maybe Poldi ATEM(chromium nickel steel) for the frame and various other parts. If not Poldi, then Witkowitz or Vitkovice Iron & Steel Works. I've been chasing the Danube Ironworks Company/Dunai Vasmu at Dunaujvaros) but can only trace it back to the 1950s. There was the Resicza Steel Works/Hungarian Steel & Munitions Works as was there Skoda(Emil Skoda with wing in a circle trademark from 1923), which had engineers that assisted Vaclav Holek and others at Ceska Zbrojovka(Czech Armoury) after pretty much all left the Praja Zbrojovka(Prague Armoury). There was a Rudolf Benes cat at one of the Zbrojovka, Brno or Prague, that was the head and the "B" of the "HB" designation is for Benes while the "H" is Holek.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

As usual Jani, you are correct and Rudolf von(he's von now) Frommer was the father of the Hungarian boxlock and obtained U.S. of A. patent #1558158 of 1925 - http://www.google.com/patents?id=t5hEAAA...;q=&f=false

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Ellenbr, the steel for the barrels is Bohler Blitz. That is found on the barrel flats. The ejector mechanism is the one described in the Frommer patent. Haven't had time to read the rest of the patent yet, particularly interested in the two brass screws in the action flats and whether the third bite is also described in the patent.

They seem to have o'plenty of them here: http://www.tradeexcanada.com/index.php?option=com_paxgallery&task=table&gid=9

http://www.tradeexcanada.com/index.php?option=com_paxgallery&task=view&gid=9&iid=2677

From what I can glean the ejector is non-selective and it doesn't matter which tube you ignite, the right and left will eject on the assumption that one will always fire the right tube 1st.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Jerry:
Well, your's seems to be an exception and completed by a master craftsman, jeweling & all.




Not for ball indicating choke.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

elenbr, the guns listed on tradex all seem to be utility guns as King Brown mentioned earlier, and in 12ga. I suspect they are post war guns and cranked out with little care. Aside from the obvious differences in engraving and finish I suspect the quality is higher throughout as it was made before the commies took over Hungary. They do not seem to have the top profile associated with the 3d bite either. I know I have seen a lot of guns with price tags about 5 times what this one cost me which aren't as well done.

Be interesting to know more about pre war models from FEG as they obviously had a capability to build some very nice guns.

here is some discussion about my plain but very unusual boxlock feg. Does your ejector mechanism lift out like mine?
http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbt...25515#Post25515

The ejector device is the same as yours. I don't have snap caps for it to check whether the ejectors are selective or always fire in the same order. However the patent states unfired shells will not be thrown from the gun so that implies selective ejectors at least as patented.

Photos added

Jerry,
Yours is by far the nicest Hungarian double I've seen, my congratulations.
There is a number of plain grade post war Feg BLE doubles here in Slovenia and they have an excellent reputation as utility guns.
With kind regards,
Jani

Here's the patent #1618247 of 1927 for the rear underlever breeching device:

http://www.google.com/patents?id=AX5KAAA...;q=&f=false

As well here looks to be a previous version under patent number #1562501 of 1925 which show's a modified Purdey nose:

http://www.google.com/patents?id=8TJPAAA...;q=&f=false



Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

I have seen a "Fegyvergyar Budapest" advertised with a "Fromers Patent".The owner said the edjectors can be removed with push button under the forearm as well.

Jerry: gy in Hungarian is pronounced approximately like 'dj' in English, i.e. in 'adjust.' Fegyvergyar is pronounced (very approximately) faedj - vaer - DJOR

The ejectors are selective and precisely timed to drop the empties exactly side by side about 8ft away. Opening the fired gun is easier than the other quality ejector guns I have. It throws the top lever home with quite a positive snap on closing too - again without forcing the action closed.

Very nice that they are selective. With all the bells and whistles it may just be approaching a "Best" mechanized Czech double, with respect to mechanized components.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Jerry thinks there is a "K" on the forend lug. My 1st thought was György Kirner due my thinking he worked at FEG and with Frommer but this is from memory and may have been a dream. I have to make more and better notes. But Rudolf von Frommer married Leoine Kornfeld(1874 - 1950) and I guess that to have been in the 1890s. So if one of Leoine Kornfeld Frommer's nephews decided to follow Rudolf von Frommer in the gun trade, it could account for the "K". I don't have a specific name but will continue to search. But Rudolf von Frommer was long gone by the date of proof of Jerry's example.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse