doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Thoughts on possibly buying a Birmingham SxS...

Lately I have looked a several Birmingham boxlocks SxS’s in the $2k to $3k range, and am somewhat tempted. These have had nice engraving, great balance, suitable chokes, decent wood. Most are 60 to 90 years old.

Like most of you, I own a dozen + shotguns, so I would not be dependent upon this potential new acquisition. All summer, I shoot skeet and sporting clays with modern O/U’s, plus a little bit of trap. Probably about 4k+ rounds. I use the O/U’s because: (a) I shoot higher scores, (b) being newer, stronger, and having better steel, they hold up very well and need minimal repair, (c) since they’re heavier at 9 pounds, they recoil much less, (d) and I “save” the older SxS’s for hunting.

About August 1st, I store the O/U’s and begin shooting the older SxS’s for sporting clays to prepare for hunting season – when I exclusively hunt with older classic American SxS’s, and one Arrieta. I probably fire another 1k rounds at sporting clays in the fall, preparing for hunting, and on evening shoots after work, when hunting isn’t feasible.

My question is how well a 70 year-old Birmingham SxS will hold up if I fire 500+ rounds through it each fall. Is this too much for an old soldier? Will it be making regular trips to my gunsmith for broken parts, stock splits, etc? Are these old Birmy’s best used very lightly? Maybe as Closet Queens? Or is it reasonable to expect them to endure two cases of shells every fall for the next 10 years – after which I’ll probably be put into a nursing home anyway?

Does anyone actually shoot 500 to 1,000 rounds a year through their Birmy? If so, how has it worked out?

There is very little difference, construction wise, between a Birmingham and a London built gun. In fact many of the maker's who had a London address built their guns in Birmingham, Manchester, Liverpool and other smaller localities. It depends on the gun and how it was cared for since it's birth. Guns of that age, for the most part, were no built for heavy loads, but with light game loads they should function indefinitely.

Just My Humble Opinion, George

Jerry they are high quality and as long as you shoot the loads they were designed for they should be reliable. My shooting student Joe Wood taught me that there was certainly an overall improvement in gun metallurgy becasue of WW1 and an overall decline in workmanship after WWII. There are certainly thousands of exceptions.

The 2-1/2" chambered guns were built to shoot on a regular basis 1-1/16 oz of shot at about 1200fps with pressure below at or below about 9000psi.

I think the Between-the-wars English 12s and BTW German 16s are the biggest bargains on the planet.

Those old guns have had decades to be screwed with. There seems to be alot of them with thin barrels. Additonally there are many out there that have been damaged by shooting hot American loads in them. As you said look for cracked and split stocks, thin walls, pin marks on the side of the hook for a quicky tightening job, loose ribs, etc.. just like any other old double.

Best,

Mike

Hi, can't add much to add to what Mike and George have said. They pretty much hit the nail on the head. I would like to add that be careful when getting a 2 1/2" chamber gun. It may be marked 2 1/2", but in the past someone may have let the chambers out to 2 3/4" and not submitted the gun for reproofing. I would check this first off. If the chambers have been let out the gun is out of proof. In the UK the gun can not be resold, but over here it's a moot point.

If the gun has been let out, you can bet that they shot modern American loads in them. The bbls and action can more than likely take the stress, but not the stock.

I'd take the gun to a good smith (or yourself) and pull the stock to see what damage that may or may not be there. Then I'd go from there.

I have 4 Brit guns and just love them. I shoot only low pressure loads in them (mostly RST, but also New Era). Never had one problem with them. They do kill birds dead.

Anyway, Good Luck!!!

All the best!

Greg

I believe that AmarilloMike is pretty much "on the money". Birmingham-made doubles, esp. those that were made "between the wars" tend to be excellent guns at great prices. (Just try to have a similar gun, made today!)

Condition can be a major factor in these old ladies as too many of them have not led happy lives. If one can find one in good shape then then these guns can give a lot of good service very inexpensively. With proper care, these guns will still be going strong long after we are "no longer interested".

Suggestions:

Before you make a final decision on purchasing one of these guns, it is a good idea to have the thing "looked at" by a COMPETENT gunsmith. Then, after the purchase, have the gunsmith "go through" the gun to make sure that everything is clean and "up to snuff". The latter form of "checkup" should be done every year to five years, depending on how much the gun is used and what conditions it is used under.

Don't "overhoss" your loads. The traditional suggestions for gunweight to shotcharge weight are good guidelines; 6 pound gun for one-ounce loads, 6 3/4 pounds for 1 1/8 ounces, and 7 1/2 pounds for 1 1/4 ounces. In fact, the gun most likely will do best with loads that are a bit on the "light side" (e.g. 7/8 to 1 1/8 ounce loads in 7 1/2 pound guns).

Pattern performance with "modern" light loads can be surprisingly good in these old, tight-bored" guns. These loads can also reduce wear on the "loose nut behind the butt"! This is particularly the case when loads are kept to "moderate" velocity levels of 1050 to no more than 1250 f.p.s..

But, say, you, like me, are a sucker for "ladies with checkered pasts and sad stories". There is very little on these old guns that cannot be fixed. Stocks can be repaired, altered, or replaced. (Old "export" Birmingham guns can have ungodly stock "drops" that can benefit greatly from judicious "bending", for example.) Actions can be tightened up and action parts can be repaired or replaced. Barrels can be cleaned up or even choke tubed or sleeved. Stock and metal finishes can be restored. All that is required is money and a good workman. At the end of the day, though, you will end up with a gun that is truly "yours" at a very reasonable price and with no harm done. The "Lady" might even be grateful!

In previous postings I have gone on at some length about a Skimin and Wood that "followed me home". This "renovated" old (1920s to 1940s) girl is now my primary all-purpose shotgun. Trap, Skeet, and Sporting Clays are all shot with this gun and, if I ever go hunting, again, I will most likely be humping its eight pounds, two ounces for that, too. I figure that, if I don't "get stupid" and I perform proper maintenance, the gun will outlast me, no matter how many rounds I put through it.

I guess what I am saying is, "Take proper care of your Birmingham gun (make?) and then go out and try to shoot the heck out of it." You might be surprised at how well you do with it. It is even possible that your O/Us might start to feel neglected!

Jerry, most well kept Birmys will give you good service--and with a touch of "class". One tip: for a shooter that will last several generations I'd focus on a Webley Model 700, postwar. They're well made basic boxlocks with modern metalurgy. Chambers were factory cut to 2 3/4". Tried and true Southgate ejectors. Short of gross negligence I don't think you can wear one out. Price is usually reasonable. Good luck!

Here's one I found on Guns International that looks like a dandy: http://www.gunsinternational.com/WEBLEY-&-SCOTT-----12ga--28-Bbl-----Cased.cfm?gun_id=100113342

I totaly agree with Mr. Wood. I have been shooting my 700 and 701 for several years and think for the money they can'y be beat. Light, nimble and well made. I also wish to take this time to say I like Mr. Woods signature line. I quote it quite often with my kids and customers. Good luck, Bob

Hi Joe, I saw that Scott also. Looks to be in great shape and the price is a good one also. I have a Scott Model 500 Grade 2 in 16ga, just a great gun. As you said, hard to go wrong with a Scott. Especially the 700 series (as long as there not the "modern" 700's made in Italy).

All the best!

Greg

Greg, thanks for mentioning that the Webley name has been bastardized with guns from Turkey carrying the venerable maker's mark. Jerry will have no difficulty recognizing them.

Doublefan, thanks for the compliment. Guess that's why I shoot flintlock rifles and old doubles.....and endure AmarilloMike's dogs!

Hi Joe, not problem. The one "Modern" ones I saw was made by Sabbiti. But I have heard, that some are being made by the Turks. Perhaps the It. made was a first run production. Much tha same as Zabala made the first Weatherby SxS's then Weatherby switched to Fausti.

Perhaps someone can chime in here and enlighten us.

BTW, there is no way as you said you can confuse these "Two" 700's.

All the best!

Greg